Evidence of meeting #131 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sdtc.
A video is available from Parliament.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Ms. Hogan, that's not the greatest response when the majority of the projects have failed to reduce at least half of their emissions.
Conservative
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
We looked at only the completed projects—18. There were 58 as part of the group, so really, it would have been 12 out of 58, but I take the member's point.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much.
Mr. Perkins, you have the floor for five minutes, please.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Deputy Kennedy, we've had testimony from many witnesses in this committee and two other committees, including from the former president of the green slush fund, that there was an ADM in every board meeting where these votes were taken. I believe for most of that time, certainly while you were deputy, one was a now retired public servant named Mr. Noseworthy. Is that correct?
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Who has replaced Mr. Noseworthy in that role?
Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
I'll have to get back to you on that. Just to be clear for the member, this is an area we've been looking at deeply. Work is under way to renovate the role of the observer.
I'll have to get back to you with the details. I'd be happy to do that.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
You said at the beginning that the department takes the management of these issues seriously, that you, as the deputy, were only made aware of this when the whistle-blower came to you, and that the board's decisions, done at arm's length, don't remove your department's responsibility over the expenditure of taxpayer dollars.
In 186 instances, perhaps with some overlap, you had an assistant deputy minister in the meeting and conflicts were declared, or were partially. He testified obtusely on those issues. Did he, as a person responsible for oversight on behalf of this department, ever report to you what was happening in the time that you were a deputy? I believe you were appointed in September 2019.
Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
On matters regarding the governance of the organization, the buck stops with the deputy minister. That's why I'm here speaking.
I don't think I'm in a position to talk about what individual employees did or did not do, just as, frankly, a basic matter of accountability and privacy. What I will say is that we're in strong agreement with the Auditor General. Again, these are my words, and I'm sorry I don't have the report, but—
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
I understand that, Deputy.
You were appointed three months after Ms. Verschuren was put in charge as chair. Were you briefed that the president of SDTC had informed the minister at that time, Navdeep Bains; ADM Noseworthy, who was a go-between; and the minister's office that she had a conflict of interest and was not an appropriate appointment for chair?
Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
I became aware of the concerns that have been raised contemporaneously with committee members. I was not deputy at the time and was not involved in those events.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
No, but I mean when you took over as deputy only three months later and got briefed on this.
Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
As to my awareness of these historical events and the concerns raised, I learned about them I would say more or less at the same time the committee did.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
On March 30, 2011, SDTC board director Stephen Kukucha had a project—which he had an equity interest in—approved by the board for $8 million. That's in your time as deputy. That followed the $4.5 million that the company he had an equity interest in received from SDTC before you were deputy.
Were you made aware by your officials that this director received an $8-million equity investment in the company?
Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
I was made aware of these concerns about the improper documentation of a conflict of interest through the whistle-blower process and the review by RCGT. Had I been aware of these kinds of lapses, you can been assured that the organization would have been moving quickly to fix them. To the point that has been raised by the Auditor General, which was that a range of activities was undertaken, they weren't sufficient to catch—
Conservative
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Andrée-Lise Méthot, who saw $44 million, in her time as director, go into companies she had an equity interest in, received $3.5 million in 2021. Furthermore, in November 2021, after she left the board to join the Infrastructure Bank board, in her cooling-off period, her company received another $8.5 million.
Did anyone inform you of that kind of corruption?
Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
I was not aware of these activities.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much.
Ms. Khalid, you have the floor for five minutes, please.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I feel like I'm very far away from you, which is a little heartbreaking.
Thank you so much to our witnesses for being here today.
Ms. Hogan, I'll start with you, if that's okay. I appreciated your letter. It helped me think about a lot of things and your role as the OAG.
Perhaps I'll start by asking what you think the role of the public accounts committee is within our democratic institutions.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
One of the roles I appreciate is that you receive all of my work. You should be studying my work in order to hold government to account for the findings in it. This should be all about good stewardship of public funds and improving the public service regardless of any political colour. The public accounts committee is a wonderful committee that should be focused on the outcome of better service to Canadians.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
I appreciate that. I feel exactly the same way, but that's a “should be” world, and we live in a “what is” world. I think those two worlds are a little different.
Perhaps I'll ask you about holding government to account. How does that correlate with people versus institutions and separating the two in your report? There's the SDTC as an organization versus the people who are running it. How do you distinguish between them?