Public Accounts Committee on June 18th, 2024

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

I'm not speaking to any of the details of our current investigation, but if a charge had been laid, that would have been made public.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Okay. The allegations that founded—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Brock, I'm afraid.... Actually, I'll come back to you, because I know you're next on the list.

Ms. Yip, you have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for waiting until we finished our votes today.

Commissioner Duheme, you originally declined the committee's invitation to appear, and I'd like to read part of your letter in response to this clerk.

It says:

As you may be aware, a similar motion concerning ArriveCAN was put forward by the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates in October 2023, which called for the appearance of an RCMP official in respect of “reports that the RCMP is investigating allegations of misconduct by three companies involved in the development of the ArriveCAN app.” The RCMP responded in writing to this request, noting that the RCMP was not investigating ArriveCAN and was investigating allegations brought to our attention by Botler AI. However, since that letter on October 2023, the RCMP has opened an investigation into ArriveCAN.

Respectfully, I am of the view that having an RCMP official appear on this matter would not serve the Committee well since we would not be able to comment in order to protect the integrity of the ongoing investigation. That said, the RCMP is committed to transparency, accountability, and integrity and remains open to the possibility of appearing at the conclusion of the investigation, should that be necessary.

Yours sincerely,

Mike Duheme

Can you please tell us what changed your mind to choose to appear before the committee today?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Initially, Mr. Chair, when it was presented, it was to discuss the investigation itself. The reason why we prepared this letter to the clerk was to explain that we are not at liberty to explain or to talk about any of the details of the investigation. I wanted the committee to be apprised of that and then to make an informed decision, because the last thing I want to do is waste your precious time on something that we can't really answer to. That was the purpose of the letter.

There was another letter that followed up on the 29th that said we would be more than happy to come with the understanding that, again, we could not talk about the specifics of the investigation.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

It's good that you laid the facts out for us. How do you, or the RCMP, generally speaking, decide when it is appropriate to speak publicly about an ongoing investigation?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

As Mark alluded to earlier, when charges are laid, it is before the judicial process system, and it is disclosed to the general public. We have a responsibility when we are investigating to make sure that we protect not only the people we are investigating, but witnesses and whatnot, for fear of intimidation, as well as making sure that we protect the investigation itself.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

How is it determined what information or evidence is able to be shared publicly?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I'll let Mr. Flynn piggyback on what I'm going to say, but anything that would be relevant to evidence to an investigation would not be discussed

Mark.

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

There are times when we do speak about ongoing investigations when there is significant public interest, and public safety interest is usually the deciding factor in a decision to reveal publicly what we are doing with respect to a certain matter.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

How does the RCMP balance the need to preserve the integrity of investigations with the public's right to information?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I appreciate that. We do a delicate balance in these high-profile files. Again, the responsibility that we have as members of the RCMP is to protect the integrity of the investigation.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Do you feel pressure from certain members of Parliament to appear before this committee or others?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I do not at all, and that's why my subsequent letter said that, if you wished to talk to us further in regard to the first letter I sent, regarding the investigation, we would be more than willing to appear.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Did the RCMP feel politically pressured to open an investigation into ArriveCAN?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

No, we did not feel that. As in any other case, there was never any political interference or pressure to open a file. In this particular case, it was brought to our attention. Our sensitive and international investigations unit began the investigation, and then subsequently we received a letter from the Leader of the Opposition about investigating ArriveCAN further, which we are doing right now.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

How does public pressure weigh into the RCMP's decision on whether to investigate something?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

We have faced public pressure in the past given the positions we've taken on certain investigations. Again, we look at doing an investigation where one is merited, and once we begin an investigation, it's about maintaining the integrity of the investigation.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Does the media play any role in your decision of whether or not to investigate something?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Mr. Chair, it does not with regard to whether or not we investigate, but they like to know what's going on.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

When we have MPs from one political party in particular who are tweeting things such as demands that the RCMP open a particular investigation or lay charges, or statements that the RCMP is under the control of Justin Trudeau, how do you handle that?

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

All of our investigative decisions are made completely independently of all political figures, whether they be members of Parliament, ministers, prime ministers or otherwise. We guard our independence quite strongly, and we are not at all weak in resisting any external forces with respect to what we investigate or don't.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

That is your time, Ms. Yip.

Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for accepting our invitation to appear before the committee. Any information they can give us today will be very useful.

I'd like to go back and put things in context. We learned that the RCMP had launched an investigation in October 2023. In fact, the Auditor General had learned about it at the same time as everyone else, when she was already conducting her audit of the ArriveCAN application.

First of all, why didn't you notify the Auditor General of this investigation from the outset to avoid duplicating work and to use the information obtained through her audit of the ArriveCAN project?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

It's important to note that the Auditor General has to take certain parameters into account during an audit, just as the RCMP does during criminal investigations. Sharing information is not that easy.