Evidence of meeting #134 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbsa.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Okay, you don't remember. That's fair enough.
Let's go on now to a different issue, which is that you did in fact speak to Kristian Firth in an email. You literally said in the email that you spoke with GC Strategies. That was on September 28, and you wanted to be very clear with those—
As an Individual
[Inaudible—Editor] the right to be paid for the deliverables that they gave.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
But they weren't aware of the fact that they were a subcontractor.
Conservative
NDP
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Mr. Desjarlais, the time has more than expired. We'll have to come back to this. You will have another opportunity.
I'm going to begin the second round.
Mr. Genuis, you have the floor for five minutes, please.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Ms. Daly, your testimony today is explosive and brutal. You've compared this to the sponsorship scandal. You said that you've been muzzled and that you are at risk of being fired for your testimony.
Why do you think you are at risk of being fired by the Government of Canada for telling the truth to this committee? What exactly is motivating those who don't want you to speak about grave problems in this government's contracting practices?
As an Individual
This is the first thing I was informed of when I met with my former director general. She said that, no, they would only want to talk to me as a witness. Then she went on to make the intimidation. She had been contacting me on a regular basis via MS Teams, via email and via setting up separate meetings to sort of stalk me. That's the way it felt. I continued to go to work because I had done nothing wrong.
However, my name began going out in the press from the October 26 meeting at OGGO. She said that the deputy minister of PSPC and the president of the CBSA were asking that I attend this meeting and that she and my senior director could attend if I wanted so that I wouldn't feel like a fish in a crocodile's mouth, or something to that effect. They wanted to ask me if I was being intimidated, threatened in any way, etc., and I told her that, no, there was no threatening going on by the two individuals she was talking about, who were my two former bosses. I'd say quite—
Conservative
As an Individual
That would be Cameron MacDonald, the director general, and Antonio Utano, my senior director.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Yes.
We're a bit tight for time, so to move our timeline forward, you're here today giving, I think, really explosive testimony before this accountability committee, and you're afraid that the things you say, the information you reveal, could result in your potentially being fired. What are the present data points that are pointing you toward that conclusion?
As an Individual
Well, it's the two investigations. I wasn't supposed to be investigated. Now I'm being investigated by CBSA and Public Works. I have that in writing.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Fundamentally, that was the result, on your account, of you not giving the answers they were looking for with respect to MacDonald and Utano. They were looking in December, if I have the timeline right, for you to say certain things about them. You didn't, and subsequent to that you were subject to investigation.
As an Individual
Yes. Let me be clear that the December 7 email I received from Michel Lafleur said it was an optional meeting. I was seeking support, medical support, for my cancer diagnosis. Let's be very clear that I let them know that I was seeking support. I gave them a very fulsome statement. It was optional.
When I said this to my director general and when I said this to Tom von Schoenberg, they were like, “Well, you have no choice. It's coming from the top. We have our marching orders.”
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Right.
Here's the timeline as I see it.
On November 7 Mr. MacDonald and Mr. Utano appear before the government operations committee. They give very critical testimony of the government. They do not support the line that this committee had been given by other senior officials. Later that month, they find out they're being investigated.
In November, part of the testimony we heard was that Minister Mendicino had been looking for someone's head on a plate. That's a direct quote. Minister Mendicino was looking for someone's head on a plate in relation to the ArriveCAN issue.
On November 7, they don't give the testimony that maybe other senior officials wanted them to. Then they are subject to further investigation, which they find out about later that month.
You're ordered to go to an interview. You don't give the answers that maybe they were expecting. Then you find yourself also suspended and also under investigation.
Moving forward, we then have the Auditor General's report. Among other things, the Auditor General's report says in paragraph 1.56 that there was a case of GC Strategies being involved in developing requirements with officials. Kristian Firth comes to this committee on March 13 and refuses to say who that official was, but on April 17 he was ready to offer four names—
Conservative
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
I'm sorry to interrupt, Garnett, but you referred several times to this committee and to people appearing before this committee. I don't believe it was in front of this committee.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
That's not a point of order. That's more of a correction.
Mr. Genuis, you can take that under advisement. I'll turn it back to you. You have about 30 seconds.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Thank you.
I did misspeak. The March 13 testimony of Mr. Firth was before the government operations committee. It wasn't before this committee.
In any event, Ms. Daly, in this series of events, a number of people who have not supported the narrative that government officials and Minister Mendicino perhaps wanted are then subject to investigation.
Why do you think Kristian Firth specifically named you in the House on April 17 in relation to what the Auditor General said in paragraph 1.56? Why was the finger pointed at you?
As an Individual
That's a very good question. I don't know why Mr. Firth made that statement. I do not recall, and Mr. Firth knows this, any conversation about IT requirements. Mr. Firth would know that any IT requirements I had received, if I had received any, would have been forwarded to people who actually worked in IT. That's because, again, I'm a procurement person. I have Geek Squad at home for residential help desk issues. I'm not the go-to for IT. Mr. Firth worked directly with CBSA IT staff on.... I don't even know what they were doing.
Let's be very clear. I could not and would not put together a package that didn't come from CBSA IT staff. I wouldn't know what to put in there.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much, Mr. Genuis. That is your time. I'm sure we'll come back to you.
Ms. Yip, you have the floor for five minutes, please.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I appreciate that you gave committee members reasonable notice regarding the timing of this meeting, especially after our colleagues on the status of women committee were not afforded the same courtesy.
Although I'm disappointed that we are meeting on an exceptional basis when the House is not in session, I just want to remind everyone that there was consensus during our last subcommittee meeting to not meet before September. I hope we are able to get back to our regular work reviewing the Auditor General's reports in the fall.
That being said, here we are, virtually and in person, and I'm glad we have the chance to speak to Ms. Daly.
On that note, Ms. Daly, my first question is this: Why did the two directors general ask you to give false testimony?