Public Accounts Committee on Sept. 3rd, 2024

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay. With your taking it over, I would have hoped for a little more on that.

I have a final line of questioning here.

Would ministers or Liberal political staffers be able to invest in companies that benefit from this green slush fund? Would any have investments and would any be able to receive those investments?

[Mitch Davies]

Mr. Chair, without speculating, I think the question is what conflict of interest procedures apply to any of these people who were mentioned in the question in their own roles. I think you'd have to address that with the individuals in those circumstances. That's certainly not something I can give an account of—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm sorry to jump in, but NRC is going to be responsible for giving out this money. What conflict of interest procedures would apply to dispensing those funds?

[Mitch Davies]

Mr. Chair, as I said, the conflict of interest policy of the National Research Council will apply to any program that comes under our care. Certainly in this case it will apply to the Sustainable Development Technology programming funding that we will have care of once we've had it transferred.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Are there rules that would prevent this kind of conflict of interest, that would prevent political staffers and ministers who own companies from having those companies benefit? Do your rules prevent that? It's a simple, clear question, and I'm not getting an answer. Can you give a clear answer?

Would your existing policies allow staffers and ministers to benefit, yes or no?

[Mitch Davies]

Mr. Chair, the conflict of interest policy of the NRC and our administration of funds is done by professionals. They'll direct funds where there's eligibility and where there are benefits for Canadians, and with the application of our conflict of interest policy to their activities. We take those decisions within the National Research Council—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Genuis. That is—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'll hear a point of order, yes, Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think I pretty clearly and repeatedly asked the question that the witness pretty clearly refused to answer, despite multiple attempts. I'd like to ask you to put the question to the witness and inform him of his obligations as a witness.

I didn't ask if they had a conflict of interest policy; I asked what the policy is. Witnesses have an obligation to answer clear questions, especially when repeatedly asked over and over again in a clear form.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Genuis.

I have a point of order from Ms. Khalid as well.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

It's on that same point of order, Mr. Chair.

I don't think that is a point of order at all, and I don't think that we can force answers from witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I do have that ability. Having said that....

Mr. Davies is here and he's answering questions. We might not like the answers; I think his non-answers speak for themselves. There will be one other round for you as the official opposition. You're welcome to press it again.

I am going to move on, Ms. Khalid. You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to talk more reasonably than the previous round.

The Council of Canadian Innovators sees the Canada Innovation Corporation as a fundamental shift in approach in supporting innovation and growth, given its focus on commercialization and protecting Canadian IP from leaving our shores. How fundamental is this, in your view, to supporting growth in our country, especially at a time when business investment is low and when we're dealing with challenges with respect to productivity?

[Mitch Davies]

Mr. Chair, obviously Canadian benefits are critical in the programs that we're talking about administering. It really is with regard to seeing those businesses able to grow and create IP, and for the returns and the benefits of that captured here in Canada for the benefit of Canadians and Canadian workers. All of that is very critical. I think that seeing those kinds of risky investments undertaken and supported and seeing things grow here in Canada is really the ultimate goal of these programs.

It's obviously a critical long-term objective for the economy, and it's really important, because that's what establishes the life that we all enjoy here in Canada. It establishes the kind of productivity performance that we need to have as a country, and many of these initiatives are all aimed at that, including, as was mentioned, the Canada Innovation Corporation, yes.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thanks for that.

What would be the impacts on business without programs like SDTC and IRAP? Given that business investment is low, in what state would innovation be in our country without government supports like this?

[Mitch Davies]

Mr. Chair, the support that's provided from public and different types of programming, whether it's through tax incentives or direct supports, has long been looked at as critical, particularly at the early stage of technology development innovation. This is the place where the risks often outweigh the potential returns or even the ability to assess those returns. These programs, I think, are there to ensure that this activity takes place, because if it didn't happen, then we would all be worse off.

Each country has an approach to this. Canada has a system of various programs and tax supports, and so on, that are all aimed to help support the financing of activities that are obviously going to support growth for the long term, including the NRC IRAP and, of course, the SDTC program for its life. Obviously, keeping that programming available to the sector and to the innovators and entrepreneurs is the objective of the current exercise that we're involved in to bring this transition to a conclusion on a timely basis.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you for that, and I couldn't agree with you more. We need to support these industries in order for Canada to have a say on the world stage. I think it is very important for us to develop and continue to improve these programs to make sure that our industries are improving and that the Canadian economy is growing, because it matters right down to each individual Canadian.

Now, the Conservatives are quite hell-bent on undermining program innovators, start-ups and small businesses that really help and support this country. If the Conservatives can so easily go against business interests, their key constituency, why would Canadians ever trust them? They're so hell-bent on destroying the public trust of our public sector. It is, I think, very shameful that they're going to these lengths of really undermining what our public sector stands for and the work that the public sector does to ensure that industry thrives and continues to grow in Canada.

Those are all the questions I have, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I think that was more of a statement, then, wouldn't you say? Yes, I didn't think you were looking for an answer, and I don't think the witness was either.

Thank you very much.

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Davies, based on your previous answers, you seem to have quite a bit of confidence in the work of the NRC officials and their ability to assess things like project eligibility. However, we know that Sustainable Development Technology Canada actually misjudged—to put it mildly—10 projects that received funding even though they were not eligible. That's not counting conflicts of interest and projects that were funded despite being ineligible. That happened during COVID‑19, for example.

If it's simply about doing the job well, did Sustainable Development Technology Canada employees do a bad job? Is that what you're saying?

[Mitch Davies]

Mr. Chair, I think it's really important for me to consider fairly the employees who work at SDTC. They've been in a challenging circumstance.

Obviously, there's been information brought to the public's attention, processes that were undertaken to review human resources management at SDTC, and I'll leave that to stand. We're not involved in that directly. I think we also want to provide an opportunity for those employees to join NRC IRAP and bring their talents and capabilities—

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

That's exactly what I was getting at. Again, it corroborates what you said earlier. It comes down to doing the job well. An employee who assesses a proposal and approves it even though it's ineligible is either incompetent or acting in bad faith. Either way, knowing that those employees have guaranteed jobs at the NRC, what are you going to do with all the ones who go there to work even though, as you yourself said, they did wrong?

Again, I repeat what you said: If an employee is doing their job well, ineligible projects won't get funding.

[Mitch Davies]

Mr. Chair, I think it's important that in any given person's case, there's a due process for their employment. I think that's quite fundamental, and in the matter of the SDTC employees as a whole, we have been asked and will make offers to employees who can join our organization in good standing. We are—

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I gather, then, that many SDTC employees will not receive an offer from the NRC. You will determine how many employees join your ranks on a case-by-case basis. Is that correct?

[Mitch Davies]

Mr. Chair, our job is to try to provide continuity of programming and to take into the NRC the employees who can deliver it. We've been asked to ensure that there's a continuity, and we certainly will ensure that this is done.

Then the employees who join us will have to meet our terms and conditions. Obviously—