Public Accounts Committee on Sept. 3rd, 2024

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

You didn't answer my question. Are you going to hire all of them or just some of them, say, half, or a handful? How many employees are you going to hire from Sustainable Development Technology Canada?

Continuity is all well and good, but we're looking for numbers here, Mr. Davies.

[Mitch Davies]

Mr. Chair, I think the overall population of employees is between 60 and 70, from what I understand. We'll make employment offers to those who have an interest, and at the end, we'll find out how many employees decide to join our team. However, we'll certainly be making offers to SDTC employees, as has been obviously shared with them. It's very important in the continuity of this work. They're there now, working away on the transition.

We will also need those employees and their information, their knowledge and their awareness of the sustainable development technology goals in the program that we'll offer in the future. It's important that we don't start off without having the kind of people who know how to adjudicate the files. They'll come under our employment terms and conditions, and obviously they'll have to meet those terms and conditions before they're employed by the NRC, including the application of our conflict of interest policy, which will be established and reviewed with everyone on day one.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Desjarlais, this is your last two-and-a-half-minute round. We'll go over to you, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I again want to thank the witnesses for their testimony today and for assisting us in our study related to SDTC, the very serious situation of conflict of interest, with issues of mismanagement and issues of people on the board and even members of the ministry not knowing for certain the leadership that was required to ensure the successful delivery of what should have been a very successful program that would have assisted small and medium-sized businesses across Canada, that would have assisted Canadian innovation, and that would have ensured that more jobs in Canada could have been created through this fund. However, unfortunately, because of this mismanagement, it's clear to me and, I think, clear to Canadians that there's serious change needed while delivering a like program.

One of my biggest concerns and one of the concerns I often hear from my constituents is related to the recovery of funds: How will funds be recovered from ineligible projects?

Mr. Davies, you did mention to me that there is an ongoing conversation. What is your role in that conversation, and what responsibility do you have in relation to that very important mandate that even the Auditor General cites as credible and important—particularly in my view—to building or rebuilding public trust?

[Mitch Davies]

Mr. Chair, is the question on the question of recovery?

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

It's on the recovery of funds from any ineligible recipients.

[Mitch Davies]

In our role at this point, we are not involved in the recovery process or evaluating it. Recovery of funds was, I believe, a topic that was discussed here previously, so I think it would be best to address questions on that to the department or SDTC or perhaps both, to be able to—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Do you feel you have no role or responsibility in the recovery of these funds, even when some projects that are currently eligible haven't received funds because of the freezing of the fund, when they could be eligible under your new program? Wouldn't you say that you have some level of responsibility or that during the transfer of the program you should at least advise SDTC of the process that should be undertaken for the recovery of funds?

[Mitch Davies]

Mr. Chair, I think without having a final answer regarding the structure of the transfer of the files, I'm not in a position to say exactly what may or may not apply to any given file and whether they're—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I understand.

Mr. Davies, would you be willing to supply this committee, once you do have it, the information we're seeking, which would better clarify for our committee and our study on behalf of Canadians the process that will be undertaken for the recovery of funds, particularly as it relates to your role as the receiver of this new program and the terms and conditions that may be required or adhered to that would ensure the recovery of taxpayer dollars for ineligible funds? Would you commit to that today?

[Mitch Davies]

Mr. Chair, to the extent that we have a specific role in respect of recovery, we'd certainly share that with the committee or Canadians generally.

What I won't do is speculate as to how exactly files will be addressed in the current process that's undergoing review between SDTC and the department, but I certainly can say that if we have a role in recovery going forward, then obviously we'll be very transparent about what it is.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Yes, please do. I'm very encouraged by that statement and I hope you will be able to play a role in the recovery on behalf of Canadians. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That's good. Thank you very much. I appreciate that back and forth.

Mr. Perkins, you have the floor for five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Along the same lines, the Auditor General, as you know, tabled with this committee, further to her audit, that $390 million of taxpayer money has been voted on in a conflict of interest, including $58 million that was given outside of the limits and parameters of the contribution agreement.

You're going to receive this pile of stuff within four to six months, and I have no confidence that the Liberal Minister of Industry or his department, who screwed all this up, will get that $390 million back.

Will you commit that if they have not gotten it back, you will follow the Auditor General's report and the comments of the deputy minister that this money needs to be recovered and go after that money?

[Mitch Davies]

Mr. Chair, I think the question of recovery and how that will be addressed is being established in the transition process. I assume that the files we receive will be in good standing, that they will be files that have standing under the contribution agreement, that they will be eligible and that we will be able to carry on our work to provide any ongoing funding that might well be required for those files or to work with those clients. That's the assumption I am making.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

What does “good standing” mean? Does it mean that the money has been recovered and you don't have to do any of the work?

NRC had a scandal during the Chrétien government in which employees were taking kickbacks on grants, and NRC had to get that money back, so you do have experience, or the NRC does have experience, in trying to recover money inappropriately given—more experience, unfortunately, than the department does. “Good standing” doesn't mean anything to me, so will you commit to getting it?

[Mitch Davies]

Mr. Chair, “good standing”, as I'm defining it, means files that are eligible under the program.

I can say that to the extent that we have a legal role to recover any funds due to the Crown, then obviously that's something we would follow up on, absolutely, within our authority to do so, as we do now, if funds are owing as a consequence of programs we already run. That's the framework that will apply to all—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Will you ensure that the employees—you talked about employee offers—who were involved in putting this forward, including the current acting president, who fast-tracked the Verschuren Centre proposal through SDTC and were involved in this Liberal cover-up of corruption, as well as any of those corrupt directors out of there, are not offered new positions, since they were already involved in helping this happen?

[Mitch Davies]

Mr. Chair, our approach with SDTC employees will be to work with the vast majority of employees to provide offers. The interim board is working with the senior executives on their employment as it is now. You could address those questions of the relationships with the most senior employees in SDTC to the interim board.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Will you make any IRAP advisory board member who is currently involved with SDTC resign in order to ensure that under your leadership, we don't have the same level of corruption that's happened under the Liberal leadership of Minister Champagne? Will you ensure that does not continue?

[Mitch Davies]

Mr. Chair, as I believe my colleague has mentioned, our current IRAP advisory board, to our knowledge, doesn't have anyone who's involved in this topic or circumstance—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I asked whether you will make sure they're off the board if they do.

[Mitch Davies]

Mr. Chair, we want all of our advisory committee members to be people who are there and serve in the public trust, and maintain the confidence—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

It means not double-dipping, which was the case with the nine directors the Auditor General identified.

Mr. Chair, with that, because of this testimony and testimony received earlier, I'd like to move the following motion. We've given it to the clerk, if the clerk wants to distribute it.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Why don't you read it first, Mr. Perkins? We'll just double-check that it is in fact the same motion before sending it around.