Evidence of meeting #137 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Donnalyn McClymont  Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office

10:35 a.m.

Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office

Donnalyn McClymont

Mr. Chair, as I mentioned, the chair process was launched in 2018. It is absolutely part of our standard process that we post a notice of opportunity on our website for any Canadian to apply. That would have been on our portal. There is also an outreach strategy that the department undertakes with colleagues to make sure we are attracting candidates eligible for the role.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

With respect to that outreach strategy, was a firm hired to identify prospective candidates?

10:40 a.m.

Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office

Donnalyn McClymont

Not to my knowledge, in this case. We have no record of a firm having been hired.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

When did Annette Verschuren make a submission with respect to her application?

10:40 a.m.

Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office

Donnalyn McClymont

Mr. Chair, as I mentioned at the outset, there will be limitations in terms of personal information that I'm not able to divulge. I would refer back to the Ethics Commissioner report that does detail in some length Ms. Verschuren's application process. She did mention, I believe in the report, that she had applied through our portal.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

We know that the minister's office approached Ms. Verschuren in April. Did she apply before that or after that? Was she recommended as part of the outreach initiative or was it the minister's office? It appears that it was the minister's office that specifically went to Ms. Verschuren.

10:40 a.m.

Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office

Donnalyn McClymont

Mr. Chair, I have no knowledge. I would have to—

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Thank you for that.

How many candidates were considered?

10:40 a.m.

Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office

Donnalyn McClymont

Mr. Chair, as I mentioned, there will be limitations in terms of personal information. In terms of the number of candidates—

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

I'm not asking for personal information. I'm just asking for an approximate number.

10:40 a.m.

Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office

Donnalyn McClymont

I would be able to say that it was under 10.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

It was under 10.

You mentioned that there was a letter of advice sent to the minister with recommended qualified candidates. Was Ms. Verschuren's name on that list?

10:40 a.m.

Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office

Donnalyn McClymont

Mr. Chair, given that it's personal information—we have provided documents as part of the House motion—in terms of the letter, I wouldn't be able to say if her name was on that letter.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Madam McClymont, I would submit that it's a highly pertinent question. There are serious issues surrounding Ms. Verschuren having conflicts of interest, including having received $12 million in funding from SDTC.

A letter was sent from PCO with a list of recommended candidates. Someone has to be held accountable. Ultimately, it's the minister who must be held accountable, but I think Canadians deserve to know if the PCO signed off on Ms. Verschuren's name as a recommended candidate, notwithstanding the very serious conflicts of interest at play.

10:40 a.m.

Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office

Donnalyn McClymont

Mr. Chair, perhaps one way I could come at the question is to note that the Ethics Commissioner notes in his report that she was part of the process and that PCO had told her, prior to being considered for appointment, that she needed to discuss her potential conflicts with the commissioner. I think one can take from that and draw a conclusion.

I'm not comfortable going further, in terms of protecting personal information, on the names in the letter.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Maybe I'll ask you this: Is it possible that someone not on the list of qualified or recommended qualified candidates could ultimately be appointed by the minister? Could that happen?

10:40 a.m.

Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office

Donnalyn McClymont

Mr. Chair, I would note that in my time in this role, I have never seen us make an appointment that does not go off an advice letter.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

With respect to that letter of advice, is that letter signed off by the Prime Minister's Office?

10:40 a.m.

Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office

Donnalyn McClymont

Mr. Chair, as we have detailed on our website, the selection committee is chaired by the Privy Council Office. It would have been one of my colleagues in my group who would have signed off on the letter of advice to the minister.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Would there have been PMO involvement, yes or no? You said the PMO was part of the process. Would that have been signed off on?

10:40 a.m.

Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office

Donnalyn McClymont

Mr. Chair, as I noted, yes, the Prime Minister's Office would have been part of the selection process alongside ourselves, the minister's office and the department.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

When did these—

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Mr. Cooper, I'm afraid that is your time. My apologies. I didn't mean to cut you off like that. You'll have another opportunity.

Mr. Weiler, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

Patrick Weiler Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I do want to thank our witnesses for being here today as we continue our study on SDTC.

I very much appreciate the witnesses' answers to the questions from my colleague Mr. Desjarlais about what the process is when you find a candidate who may have a conflict. How often do you see a candidate who may have a conflict?

10:45 a.m.

Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office

Donnalyn McClymont

Mr. Chair, I wouldn't want to give a number, but I would say it's not infrequent that we have people who want to serve on boards, Crown corporations, agencies or tribunals who have obviously some knowledge and who have, as the committee has mentioned, the merit and education and skills and experience to serve well in these roles. It happens not infrequently. I would say that in this case, given the nature of the legislation, it makes it challenging to manage the conflict.

We do have other extremes, I would say, where the requirements in the legislation are so restrictive that we have had a very difficult time finding qualified candidates. The one that we've worked on most recently would have been the Canadian Energy Regulator. You can't hold interest, essentially, in any energy field, which makes it very, very difficult, because those are often areas of investment in portfolios, for example.

To the honourable member's question, yes, it's not uncommon. We work very closely with the commissioner's office, respecting, of course, the line between their role and ours. I would say that at the end of the day, it is up to the Ethics Commissioner to make a ruling and decide if an individual can serve in a role, depending on their background and their financial interests. We have, I think, quite a good partnership in terms of working with them on making those decisions.