Evidence of meeting #140 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ouimet.
A video is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Did you always leave the room or were you ever-present?
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
You did it in every case, whether it was Recyclage Lithion, Nouveau Monde Graphite or Swirltex—
Corporate Director, As an Individual
I can reassure you on certain aspects.
Recyclage Lithion is the company involved in the conflict of interest that was discussed. In this case, I always recused myself. I always disclosed this conflict of interest and I never participated in any decision concerning this company.
As for the other companies mentioned, I have no interest in them. As my colleague Mr. Kukucha said, these are companies with which one can perceive indirect links. For example, Li-Cycle is a competitor of Recyclage Lithion. I have no interest in this company, but, as a precaution, if a file concerning it is presented for a decision, I will recuse myself, since my decision could be perceived as being tainted by my interest in Recyclage Lithion. I therefore recused myself.
As for the other files, there is only one other source of apparent conflict of interest, and that is the clients of a sister company of Recyclage Lithion called Seneca, which offers consulting engineering services. I have no interest in or connection with this company, but when it presented files with its clients, such as Nouveau Monde Graphite and enim, I felt that these companies were connected to someone I knew, so I declared my apparent conflict of interest and recused myself. That's what happened.
With regard to the controversial payment related to COVID‑19, the sums referred to in all these files are added together, as if they had been paid in the presence of a conflict of interest. It's not a conflict of interest; it's the appearance of a conflict of interest that I declared out of an abundance of caution concerning companies with which I have no connection. That's all it is. Then people come along and lump things together and draw unfortunate conclusions. We shouldn't cry wolf when there isn't one.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you.
Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you have time for one very short question.
Bloc
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
All right.
Thank you very much.
Up next is Mr. Desjarlais.
You have the floor for six minutes. Again, if you could speak, as you always do, slowly and clearly, please, that would assist the interpreters. Thank you.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for being present with us today for this important study. As you're both aware, it's of incredible importance to the Canadian public to understand exactly what happened with taxpayer dollars.
It's important to note that there have been two incredible damages, from my perspective, in terms of how the issue of SDTC has manifested in the Canadian public. The first is the incredible damage to the sector of green innovation in ensuring that we have projects, companies, small businesses and medium businesses that actually have support from a government that wants to see real action on the climate crisis. That policy has taken substantial and serious impact because of the extreme mismanagement of SDTC.
The second is that the trust in our institutions is largely compromised when it comes to arm's-length institutions outside the public service. As you know, as a member of Canada's labour party, I'm very concerned about the serious allegations of HR abuses that the whistle-blower brought forward and the very serious lapses related to human resource management there.
It's incredibly disappointing to know that the participation, professionally, of both of you in this has conducted itself this way, largely resolving itself in the disbanding of SDTC outright and the ending of this chapter in Canadian history of having a third party like SDTC. I want you to take full accountability. As board members, on behalf of Canadians, you had public trust. You were entrusted to deal with this with the utmost professionalism. It resulted in the minister largely finally disbanding your work and transferring this to ISED, which I fully agree with. It should have been done much sooner.
Turning to the findings of the Auditor General, Mr. Ouimet, I do want to cite how important it is that you understand the Auditor General's report. In your testimony thus far, you have cited the Ethics Commissioner. Although we do take into consideration all the work of our colleagues, whether it's in the House or in committees, including the ethics committee, it's important to this committee and our own study that you understand the findings of the Auditor General. The Auditor General herself is an independent officer of this Parliament and is responsible for ensuring public trust and accountability, so I'd like you to answer the questions in direct relation to the Auditor General's report.
I'll return now to some beginning questions that I think are important for Canadians to understand—namely, your roles and responsibilities in relation to your participation at SDTC. Can you each take approximately 10 to 15 seconds to describe your roles and responsibilities at SDTC, please?
Let's start with Mr. Kukucha.
As an Individual
In direct answer to your question, I was a board member for a three-year period. I sat on the project review committee.
To address your statement—if I may, Mr. Chair—with regard to the HR matters that were referred to, I would say two things. One, at no time were any issues brought up to the board for us to consider. In fact, among all the reports given to the board, there were no issues. Two, the independent McCarthy report confirmed there were no issues. Whatever may have been said by the whistle-blower, there was an independent study done by a reputable law firm suggesting those issues were not credible.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
We both know, Mr. Kukucha, that these reports, including the independent report on HR, can be sufficient for some, particularly management. However, this is clear evidence why unions are important. These disputes happen all the time. You can look at the Ontario business registry, the corporate registry of Alberta and the B.C. business registry, where you're from, and you can see how many labour disputes in this country go ignored, including the recent one with the Teamsters.
The fact that the McCarthy report exists.... The whistle-blower gave us a credible challenge to that: Why not release all of the employees under an NDA, then? You have to understand that these employees were subject to a non-disclosure agreement at the time of that report. I'm sorry if I have to be blunt and crass with you in relation to the fact that I don't believe the findings of that report to be fully credible, because there was a significant legal obstacle to those employees testifying truthfully, thanks to the SDTC's NDA requirement.
Mr. Ouimet, would you please describe your role at SDTC?
Corporate Director, As an Individual
Yes. I was a director at Sustainable Development Technology Canada, or SDTC, from November 8, 2018, to June 3, 2024. I was a member of the project review committee and a member of the committee dealing with governance and appointments.
With regard to your concern, you mentioned mismanagement.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
The Auditor General speaks of mismanagement, Mr. Ouimet.
Corporate Director, As an Individual
Right. The Auditor General raised findings that SDTC accepted and recognized. However, as I pointed out in my opening remarks, the findings with respect to mismanagement mostly had to do with project eligibility and compliance. What I'm talking about is projects that aren't eligible, that don't meet the criteria for funding agreements or the SDTC's governing legislation. It's not as if management or the board freestyled it or acted outside the parameters.
On the contrary, a structured business plan is submitted to the board every year, approved by the board, submitted to Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada and approved by the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry.
We may wonder why the government didn't update the funding agreements or the legal framework annually or periodically. That's a good question, but to say that there's—
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
That's a great question, Mr. Ouimet, but the question I'm curious about is the finding of the Auditor General in relation to your breaches of the act. You know, the Auditor General was very clear that legislation passed by democratically elected parliamentarians to help govern these programs and services, including legislation each of you committed to uphold, was breached. That's the fundamental issue we're discussing today. I understand, Mr. Ouimet, that you want to balance the temper between this issue and the facts, and—
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Excuse me, Mr. Desjarlais. Your time is up.
Mr. Ouimet, would you like to speak to that briefly?
Corporate Director, As an Individual
Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to get back to the issue of harassment. As Mr. Kukucha said, the entire process was carried out diligently by the stakeholders involved. There were several reports. There were doubts about the credibility and independence of some of them. At one point, the minister said that enough was enough and that he was getting the Auditor General involved. A law firm, McCarthy Tétrault, was hired and went through a completely open and very detailed process to get to the bottom of the HR issues.
The report dismissed harassment allegations and human resource issues. Those were management issues. That's what the report says.
Whistle-blowers are people who raise issues. The authorities then conduct an investigation. The whistle-blower's testimony is not the truth. That person's role is to sound the alarm, but the rest is based on the investigation.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much.
We'll move on to questions about this topic.
Mr. Perkins, you have the floor for five minutes.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Kukucha, who contacted you to ask you to be on the board?
As an Individual
No one contacted me. I applied through the Governor in Council appointment process and followed that process. Approximately two and a half years later, I was appointed. It was not a quick process. I thought that I could bring my skills and experience to the board and add value.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Mr. Ouimet, who contacted you to serve on the board?