Public Accounts Committee on Sept. 23rd, 2024

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

The clerk can circulate this motion, if she wishes.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Why don't we hear the motion first, so that I can ensure it's in line?

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

The motion is as follows:

That, with regard to the committee's ongoing study of SDTC, and given that:

(i) the Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet of Privy Council Donnalyn McClymont stated that “The selection processes are application-based. Positions are advertised through notices of opportunity on the Privy Council website.” and “As I have said from the outset, we would post a notice of opportunity on our website. We would invite people to apply. We would assess those applications.”; and given;

(ii) former Minister Navdeep Bains said that “The process...is an open, fair and transparent process that's publicly available to all individuals. Anyone who wants to apply can do so.... It's open to everyone.”, and given;

(iii) Annette Verschuren, former Chair of SDTC, stated that “I never applied for the position of the Chair of SDTC.” and that “there were indications that I was requested”;

the committee therefore express its deep concern with the contradictions between Ms. Verschuren's testimony and that of former Minister Navdeep Bains and PCO appointments, and therefore agree to:

(a) order the production of PCO's letter of advice to Minister Bains for the Governor in Council appointment of Annette Verschuren, Guy Ouimet, and Stephen Kukucha, in both official languages, without redactions, within 14 days following the adoption of this motion;

(b) order the production of a copy of Annette Verschuren's, Guy Ouimet's, and Stephen Kukucha's application to Privy Council to serve on the board of SDTC, if it exists, in both official languages, without redactions, within 14 days following the adoption of this motion;

(c) order the production of any briefings notes, letters, or memorandums, provided to Minister Bains, former Deputy Minister John Knubley, or Hilary Leftick, from PCO, that were prepared as part of Ms. Verschuren’s candidacy as chair, in both official languages, without redactions, within 21 days following the adoption of this motion;

(d) hold two meetings on SDTC, within 14 days following the adoption of this motion, and invite former Minister Navdeep Bains, Donnalyn McClymont, and Hilary Leftick, to provide clarity on the contradictory testimony.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Just one second, Mr. Perkins.

I'm going to suspend for a second, consult with the clerk and get the motion distributed.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

All right. I'll bring this meeting back into order.

Electronic copies have been sent out to members.

Mr. Perkins, you have the floor, and then I'll turn to a speaking list. Thank you.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

During her appearance last week at the industry committee, I asked the former chair, Annette Verschuren, when she was called, and who called her, to be on the board. She said, “I don't know exactly the date. It was a couple of times, I think, he [former minister Bains] spoke to me about this, as did his policy adviser”. Then I said, “They called you to see if you would do this”, and she said, “Yes.”

Then I said, “in your interview”, they said that “the government approached you. Is that correct?” She said, “That's correct.” I asked, “Had you applied before you spoke with Minister Bains, or after?” Ms. Verschuren said, “I never applied for the position of the chair of SDTC.” She said that she never applied. Then, she subsequently went on to say, on another question of mine, that she never applied for anything in her life, which is a very egotistical statement.

Then, in a response later on, when I asked her again, she said, “Mr. Chair, I believe the situation was that there were indications that I was requested to consider being an applicant” for this. Therefore, she never applied, yet former minister Bains, when he was before our committee, said that he got a list from PCO with only the names of people who applied, and the head of PCO appointments, who works for the Prime Minister, said that they only provided names of people who applied.

Spontaneously, several days after the fact, Ms. Verschuren changed her mind again, but I believe the testimony she gave before committee when she said, three times, that she never applied and that the government asked her to do this, as they were pushing the former chair, Jim Balsillie, out the door because he had criticized the government in the ethics committee for its lack of attention to privacy breaches, for its surveillance economy and for a particular breach by Facebook. According to previous testimony, the minister made clear, on several occasions, to former president Leah Lawrence, of the green slush fund, that this irritated the Prime Minister and the government, and they wondered if they could not get him to be quiet.

We have all of this contradictory testimony here, and as such, these individuals need to come back and clarify just exactly how all of this happened. The reason is that, in the history of SDTC—and it's more than a 20-year history—there has only been one chair who, when appointed, and during her appointment, was conflicted. Former minister Bains told her—and ADM Noseworthy sat in the ISED meetings—that they would “manage” the conflicts.

We had testimony here today from Mr. Ouimet, and we've had testimony from the former president, who said that once Ms. Verschuren was appointed, Mr. Ouimet came to them and said that he was going to go on the board of this company that he wasn't allowed to go on before because it was a conflict, but now conflicts were okay, so he could go on the board. That company continued to get more money from SDTC while Mr. Ouimet was on the board. For the 82% of all transactions that happened in that audit, where directors were voting conflict of interest money to boards, they had a total, by the way, of $330 million for that, according to the Auditor General.

No wonder Mr. Kukucha and Mr. Ouimet won't acknowledge the Auditor General's report; they don't like what she found, which was the truth that $330 million was voted to companies that board members had interests in.

Therefore, this contradictory stuff needs to be addressed. I know, Mr. Chair, that on the original motion on the study, these individuals—former minister Bains, who's now in charge of the highest cellphone prices in the world at Rogers, and the other PCO officials, as well as PMO officials—need to be in this room, in this meeting, to be held accountable for these contradictions as to whether they overrode the appointment process to put a political appointee in place in this manner.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Before I turn to Mr. Desjarlais and others, I will say this to our witnesses. If you gentlemen could just hold fast for a few minutes, I'm going to see if this is going to take a little while or if it's going to be wrapped up relatively quickly. If it's done quickly, we will come back to you. If you could, please just sit tight for a few minutes as we hear some of the comments from the members. I do have to deal with the motion right off the bat because it is a matter-at-hand motion. It is in line.

On that note, Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to Mr. Perkins for this important motion. I, of course, support this motion. It's important that we ask and exhaust as many of the questions relevant to this very important audit as we can.

However, Mr. Chair, I have a point of recommendation, perhaps, for Mr. Perkins, the mover of the motion.

Today, we heard incredible testimony from two witnesses who largely failed to accept the Auditor General's report. It is incumbent upon me to suggest that the Auditor General be allowed to reply to what I think are instances of an attempt to dissuade the public or discredit the Auditor General and her work by overly stating its broadness or non-application of evidence. I'm not sure if we can include in this motion the attendance of the Auditor General to clarify statements made by witnesses who have largely obfuscated, I think, the public record on the importance of her findings.

Mr. Chair, would it be okay for Mr. Perkins to amend this to include the Auditor General?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That is not necessary. The Auditor General has already been included in a previous motion. It is our custom—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Is she a witness coming forward later?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Yes. She will have an opportunity.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Okay. That's perfect.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

As well, the Auditor General has an open invitation to attend any hearing on studies that she and her office have conducted. They generally choose to do so when it's an institution that has been put under the microscope. The OAG will attend at some point as part of these hearings, Mr. Desjarlais.

While your amendment has some support, it is moot and does not need to be considered at this time.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Is it possible, within the same two-week period in which we're summoning information, documents and witnesses, to have the Auditor General present, or at least invite her in relation to the former witness list she's included on?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I can't guarantee that. I negotiate with her office about times that are suitable. However, I can assure you the OAG will be appearing. I'm working on the calendar to ensure that the motions this committee has passed are duly respected.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I appreciate that.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I hear what you're saying, and I'll have discussions with you.

I'm now going to turn to Mr. Drouin, who requested the floor.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I have a quick question.

I know there was a motion adopted on September 5. I'm wondering whether the September 5 motion corresponds to what is being asked here—in the spirit of redundancy.

I salute my honourable colleagues' willingness to get to the bottom of this. I'm assuming that tomorrow they will vote no on non-confidence, since they want to see these documents. I'm assuming they're not going to want to go into an election this time around.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I'd love to go into an election.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

That brings me to this: Why do this if you want to go into an election right away? I question their motivations, if you permit me, Mr. Chair.

I would ask the clerk whether or not the motion adopted on September 5.... We have reason to believe it will answer a lot of the items of the motion being asked here.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm going to ask you to put questions through the chair and maybe make some arguments, Mr. Drouin.

We assess the motions. I'm not sure if you're looking to—

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I'm looking for non-partisan advice, Mr. Chair, with all due respect. I respect your opinion, but may I consult, through you, with the clerk, in order to see—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Sure.

Mr. Drouin, you are certainly new, so I will turn things over to the clerk. I can pretty much guess what she is going to say—something about being masters of our own domain.

Madam Clerk, you have the floor.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Hilary Smyth]

Thank you.

For the committee, I will read the motion adopted on September 5 as amended:

That the committee order the production of the following documents:

(a) the advice letter to the then-Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry regarding the 2019 appointment of the Sustainable Development Technology Canada Chair, as referenced by the witness today;

(b) the minutes of all meetings of the selection committee that considered that appointment; and

(c) all communications between the Privy Council Office and then-Minister Bains, then-Minister Bains' office, the Prime Minister's Office, and the Department of Industry, respecting the appointment of Ms. Verschuren as Chair of Sustainable Development Technology Canada,

and that these documents be deposited with the clerk of the committee within three weeks of the adoption of this motion.

There could be some overlap here, but it is at the members' discretion to discuss this and come to a decision.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Drouin, the floor is yours.

You're welcome to make any amendments to the motion that you see fit if you think that is in order.