Public Accounts Committee on Sept. 25th, 2024

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Do you know what those gaps were? Have you looked into this?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Specifically as part of the investigation...no. I am not part of the investigation.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Let me ask you something.

The narrative here is very strange. One of the things that PSPC and Mr. Lafleur seem to be going after Ms. Daly on is this email, or this creative writing, that somehow she had some role in selecting GC Strategies. Someone at her level would not have been able to do that.

Who was responsible for signing off on the NSE, the national security exception, which they seem to be putting on Ms. Daly?

[Lysane Bolduc]

I don't know, because I was not part of the procurement process at the time and—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Are you aware that the person who signed off on it was Ms. Reza, who is now, of course, the deputy minister?

[Lysane Bolduc]

I was not.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Do you find it odd that they seem to be targeting someone who is a PG-05 and very far down the ladder for this when legally it was the ADM at the time, Ms. Reza, who was accountable and responsible for signing the national security exception?

[Lysane Bolduc]

I was not aware of that, and I don't want to speculate on what it is, odd or not.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Do you understand how odd this is that somehow this...? The government cannot put out a tweet without 20 people approving it, yet Ms. Daly, from far down the totem pole, somehow pushed a sole-source to GC Strategies when the ADM was the one who actually signed the exception. However, it's all due to this lower-level mastermind who pushed it toward GC Strategies.

Do you not find this narrative hard to believe?

[Lysane Bolduc]

I don't want to speculate.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

That is the time, Mr. McCauley.

Mr. Drouin, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses here today.

I'll take the lead from my colleague, Mr. Desjarlais, and ask a few questions about supply arrangements. I think that the term in Ontario is vendors of record.

I gather that you were a director general at the Canada Border Services Agency when—

[Lysane Bolduc]

No. I never worked for CBSA.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Okay.

I want to ask you about task‑based informatics professional services, or TBIPS, and solutions‑based informatics professional services, or SBIPS. My colleague seems to be saying that it's a bit tricky to get on that list.

Public Works and Government Services Canada manages the supply arrangements for TBIPS and SBIPS, right?

[Lysane Bolduc]

That's right. As I explained, every quarter, suppliers can offer their services and join this list, which is a supply arrangement. Under this arrangement, when our clients have specific needs, they can request specific proposals to meet those needs.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Okay.

[Lysane Bolduc]

Inclusion on the list doesn't constitute a contract.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Exactly. It isn't a contract. It just shows availability. A company could, if it wanted to, approach certain Public Works and Government Services Canada clients if they had specific information technology needs.

[Lysane Bolduc]

No. It's the other way around. Clients make their needs known and the companies then come up with proposals to meet them.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Okay.

That said, the whole point is to shorten the procurement process, right? Otherwise, why have a supply arrangement if the department's clients must go through a lengthy procurement process? As we often hear, the process takes too long and acts as a barrier to the uptake of technology available on the market. We often hear this from public servants. They would like a certain technology, but it takes too long to obtain it.

Is the goal to shorten the procurement process, or just to simplify it?

[Lysane Bolduc]

The goal is to shorten the process, not to simplify it, since it involves an extra step. However, this list of pre‑qualified suppliers makes it possible to obtain proposals more quickly when a need arises.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Okay.

There is a lot of talk about GC Strategies, the company at issue, but there are many such companies, so-called body shops or recruitment agencies. Basically, they are companies that, once they are selected by a department, find consultants that can provide the expertise the department needs. So they have to be specialists in the field in question, whether that's Oracle or something else, in order to give the required training.

Is that correct, overall?

[Lysane Bolduc]

That's correct.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Okay.

In the case of GC Strategies, the auditor general said there were some gaps. I am new to this committee, but I read the auditor general's report and I also note a lack of information and accountability on this contract, specifically as to whether this procurement method was used.

Typically, if a department used this procurement method for a company, any company, whether for TBIPS or SBIPS, how would it report that it used a certain consultant or expert and that the person fulfilled the requirements? What is the internal reporting process?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Typically, clients follow up and verify the invoicing in relation to the contract. Clients actually have to be able to report how much they spent on a contract. At Public Services and Procurement Canada, our role is to ensure that the maximum amount that can be spent on a contract has not been exceeded. That is indeed the maximum that can be spent. The client departments are in fact responsible for tracking what was spent, bearing in mind what the contract says.