Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 9th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Good afternoon. I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 144 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Before we begin, I'd like to ask all in-person participants to read the guidelines written on the updated cards on the table. These measures are in place to help prevent audio and feedback incidents and to protect the health and safety of all participants, especially the interpreters. This is a kind reminder to all those in person and online that, for the safety our interpreters, it very important that your microphone is muted when you are not speaking.

Thank you for your co-operation.

All comments should be addressed through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee is resuming consideration of “Report 6: Sustainable Development Technology Canada” of the 2024 reports 5 to 7 of the Auditor General of Canada.

I'd like to welcome our witness, Navdeep Bains, who is joining us remotely.

I understand that you have opening remarks, which are welcome. You have five minutes. The floor is yours, sir. Thank you for joining us today.

[Navdeep Bains, As an Individual]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Members of the committee, my name is Navdeep Bains. From November 2015 to January 12, 2021, I served as Canada's minister of innovation, science and industry.

Having once appeared at the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology, I'm here to answer any questions regarding Sustainable Development Technology Canada and my role when I was minister.

Sustainable Development Technology Canada is an arm's-length organization established by an act of Parliament. As minister, my only role, as outlined by the act, was to make appointments to the Sustainable Development Technology Canada board. The appointments I made when I was minister were recommended to me through a fair, open and transparent process brought forward in 2016 to allow more opportunities for all Canadians to serve their country.

Through that process, all positions are posted publicly on the GIC appointments website. Applications are simple and made online, and postings are posted until an appointment is made. The goal was to bring a consistent process to appointments. After receiving applications for an appointment, a selection panel was led by the Privy Council Office with supports from across government. These panels conducted interviews with the candidates and presented ministers with short lists of candidates. Positions were kept open until a successful candidate was recommended. Accordingly, it would also not be uncommon for multiple groups of candidates to be recommended. I recommended over 100 applicants in this open, transparent, merit-based process from when I was first appointed minister in November 2015 until I left cabinet on January 12, 2021.

With respect to the relationship between me and Sustainable Development Technology Canada, as I have previously testified, Sustainable Development Technology Canada is an arm's-length organization. My role as minister of innovation, science and industry was to recommend seven of the 15 board members, including the chair. While funding for Sustainable Development Technology Canada flowed through the department, we were not responsible for the management and governance of the staff or board.

I believe in the clean-tech sector and the benefits it has brought to Canada. I am proud of the incredible people and companies that have made this sector in Canada a global leader.

Once again, I am here to answer your questions.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

We'll now begin our first round. The four members have six minutes each.

Mr. Perkins, you have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I thank former Liberal minister Bains.

I would like to ask him this: As a minister of the Crown, you were responsible to Parliament for all parliamentary appropriations under your department, were you not, in addition to appointments?

[Navdeep Bains]

When all ministers set budgets, they need to be approved by Parliament. That is correct.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

That's right. You're accountable for that. You're accountable for every dollar that was spent and allocated.

I'm going to ask you, first of all, about your appointment of the chair, Annette Verschuren, who, at this committee, said three times that she didn't apply—that you phoned her twice to ask her to serve. Then, apparently—

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

—she applied after that.

It's not a point of debate, Mr. Chair—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm sorry, Mr. Perkins. Hold on. I do have to hear the point of order.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Okay. We'll start all over again.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

The member knows full well that the particular person he's talking about has corrected the record in writing.

Thank you so much.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

No, she hasn't. If you listen, you will get the answer, so I'll do it all over again.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Okay, gentlemen, stop. This is clearly a point of debate.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

No, it isn't.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'll just remind the government members that I don't like needless points of order on either side.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I'm a backbench—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

My point, though, is not to highlight that it's a government member issue. It's not. It happens occasionally on both sides when the debate gets heated.

You always have the immediate right of reply after Mr. Perkins. It is you, in fact, Mr. Drouin, and I hope that if you extend, on your side, courtesy to the official opposition, they will do the same. If they do not do so, I will censure them as well. I am going to back up the clock for Mr. Perkins.

You can restart your question, Mr. Perkins—not the time, just your questions. I'm backing up the clock, not from the top, but you can start your question from the top.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I think he interrupted me before I even got my question in.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Perkins, I said that I'm backing up the clock. You have the floor.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Bains, according to Annette Verschuren, you phoned her twice to ask her to serve. Is that correct? That's what she said at the committee.

[Navdeep Bains]

As I have stated in my previous testimony—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I don't want a dissertation on the appointment process. It's a simple yes or no. You phoned her twice—yes or no.

[Navdeep Bains]

As I stated in my previous testimony at the industry committee, I reached out to a number of people during my tenure as a minister and asked them to participate in its open, transparent, merit-based—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

You called her twice.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.