Evidence of meeting #146 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
How many were submitted between those dates? You had a short list. It was in the minister's possession for a month and a half. Then he calls Annette Verschuren and asks her to apply. She applies. She gets interviewed. She gets added to the list.
How many other candidates did the selection committee interview during that period?
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
We interviewed an additional three candidates for the—
Conservative
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
No, they applied after October 12, 2018.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
They didn't apply after March 15, so Ms. Verschuren was the only candidate who applied after March 15, 2019.
Is that correct?
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
Mr. Chair, I will just clarify. I apologize, because I know it is confusing with all of these different dates.
We reviewed applications on October 12, 2018. We interviewed eight individuals for that first batch to March 15, 2019. In that intervening period, between October 2018 and May 2, 2019, an additional 47 people applied. We short-listed 16, and we interviewed three.
Conservative
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
It was May 2, 2019.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Of the candidates who were short-listed, six candidates—
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
Sixteen candidates were short-listed.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Well, six candidates made the final list to the minister—not 16, but six.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
That is correct.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
How many of those, other than Ms. Verschuren, had conflicts of interest with SDTC?
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
Mr. Chair, I apologize. That's personal information, and I am not able to provide details of the five other candidates and their personal circumstances. I refer back to the fact that we provided the summaries of each one of those individuals in terms of their candidacy through the selection committee review and the reference checks.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much.
I believe we will get back to you, Mr. Cooper, so I'll cut things off there.
Ms. Khalid, you have the floor for five minutes, please.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you very much, Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here today. I really appreciate it.
l'll get right to it. When a position becomes available and a PCO posting goes out—a call for candidates—what are the next steps for PCO? Does PCO habitually receive lists of relevant individuals from government departments? Do departments mass-email stakeholders? How does it work?
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
Mr. Chair, the question around outreach is a very important one. We are a pretty small shop, and we focus on the selection processes themselves and the appointment process. The outreach is really, in our view, the responsibility of the department, the minister's office and, ultimately, the minister to try to attract and find the best candidates.
You're right; there are lots of different vehicles that can be used, including mass mail-outs. I would say to the committee that it is not unheard of for the minister's office, the Prime Minister's office or even the minister to make outreach connections with potential candidates who are qualified for the positions and to encourage them to apply. That is absolutely part of the open process.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you. I appreciate that.
When the posting for the chair position was posted in September 2018, what happened next? Did the department provide you with names? Did PCO do any outreach to potential candidates? What exactly happened there?
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
Mr. Chair, we would not have done the outreach. It would have been, really, up to the department, the minister's office, and the minister to do the outreach to try to attract candidates. They would have applied through our portal. We would have looked at the portal on October 12, 2018, to see who was in there. We would have assessed who was eligible, and then we would have run interviews.
We do not close the processes until an appointment is made, so it is not uncommon for us to provide advice to the minister and then look into the portal after the fact and find that, potentially, some very good candidates have applied, and we will do a second pass of interviews until an appointment is made. Our goal there is to make sure that we're providing the best advice to the minister and, ultimately, the Prime Minister and cabinet, on the most qualified candidates for the position.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
I appreciate that, but it took over a year to fill the chairperson position for this role. Are these usual timelines? Did PCO have any difficulty finding candidates in this instance? Why did it take so long?
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
Mr. Chair, I would say that this bedevils me constantly. I would like things to go more quickly—we all would. We do our best. It gets complicated when you're trying to attract good people.
To the member's question, it is sometimes hard to find good people. I worry that it gets harder, not easier, in the current context, media-charged, focused.... It's hard to attract really qualified people for some of these positions, and then it's hard to get selection committee members together, coordinating, sometimes, with deputy ministers and their schedules. I'm not trying to make excuses, but it is hard to keep the machine moving.
As the member points out, is this the standard? Yes, it can take us anywhere from six months to a year to find good people, run a selection process, and have a minister make a decision and make an appointment, and we're very clear about that on our website. It can take time to find good people, make the decisions and get those good people into place.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Lastly, I'll ask you, why do you think you're here today?
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
I feel that we're here today to provide some important clarification. As Mr. Perkins said, there seems to be a bit of confusion around Ms. Verschuren's appointment. I think it's important, for the committee's work, to understand that there was an application and a process that she went through, and that she was recommended, ultimately, by the minister. We're very happy to come and to give those explanations to the committee for its important work.
Liberal
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much.
Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you have the floor for three minutes.