Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I stopped the meeting and waited for one Conservative member today because I was tired of him lobbing at your side.

If you weren't here for that, I'm sorry—

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Chair, I've been on this committee for a year.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. McCauley, you have the floor. You have just over three minutes.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Which minister is responsible for withholding the information that the committee has ordered?

[Donnalyn McClymont]

Mr. Chair, I'm not sure I quite understand the member's question. At the end of the day, we in my group would have been the ones to determine the redactions.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

So it's PCO, and the Prime Minister is the minister in charge of PCO.

Again, I'll go back to the original question. Who ordered or directed these documents to be redacted? It had to come from someone. It wasn't on its own. Who was it, please?

[Donnalyn McClymont]

Mr. Chair, as I mentioned, there is a central coordinating unit within PCO that directs, when we get requests for parliamentary documents, to prepare the documents, to respect the requests from the parliamentarians and to apply the necessary legislation.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Walk me through the process. Did you receive this and then go to this central governing board? Did they provide it in writing? Was it a phone call or an email?

[Donnalyn McClymont]

We normally get an email sent out at senior levels, so the email probably would have come to me directly or perhaps to Rima.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Would you provide that email to us, please, with the directions?

[Donnalyn McClymont]

We can certainly have a look to see if we have that on hand, Mr. Chair, and we'll do our best to provide it as quickly as possible.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

You mentioned “on hand”, and I'm greatly concerned. You mentioned other documents, and you said you don't keep documents. You repeatedly referred to the ATIP law. Government has very specific instructions on holding and keeping documents, yet earlier you stated, when Mr. Cooper was asking, that there was only one email about a specific subject. You stated that you didn't keep the records and you didn't keep documents.

Are you following what is required by the Access to Information Act or the ATIP act on keeping records?

[Donnalyn McClymont]

Mr. Chair, we absolutely hold the responsibility as good stewards. Information management is a top priority for me in our branch, and we absolutely take that responsibility very seriously.

As I've mentioned to the committee, the selection committee processes are really like an interview panel where people take notes, and we use those notes as the final documents of the advice letters.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Those notes have to be kept, though. They are required to be kept, but you threw them out.

[Donnalyn McClymont]

Mr. Chair, as I mentioned, they're handwritten notes and they are considered transitory.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'm sorry, but handwritten notes are required under the ATIP act to be kept. They're not to be thrown out. They're no different from texts or emails. They are required to be kept.

Do you not see an issue here?

[Donnalyn McClymont]

Mr. Chair, as I've mentioned, the notes are used to formulate the final advice, and that is the final record. That is the requirement in terms of our record-keeping, of our obligations, both within the organization and also under the law, to keep a final record of the deliberations of the selection committee.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

How much time do I have, Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have enough for one last brief question.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Very quickly, just walk me through a simple, really easy one.

You said the “good behaviour” appointments have a very high bar for dismissal. I'm looking at the process for hiring. Everyone has to sign off on the Governor in Council appointments candidate declaration and certification form, which covers the ethical and political activity guidelines for public office holders. Very clearly, a lot of the directors violated that statute.

Why is it so difficult to terminate them when they very clearly failed to follow the rules under the ethical and political activity guidelines for public office holders? I think they met a very high bar in violating these conflicts of interest.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. McCauley.

I'll allow the witness to answer.

[Donnalyn McClymont]

Mr. Chair, it's a very fair question that the member asks: What is the bar for “good behaviour” appointees?

As I've mentioned, I'm not a lawyer by training, but our lawyers have advised us that it's cause, and cause is generally where there is illegal activity or fraudulent activity or, to the member's point, where a law has been broken. We would have to do an investigation and have a very solid dossier in order to remove someone. In this case, the individuals resigned before that course of action could have been taken.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

We go now to our final member, Mr. Erskine-Smith, joining us online.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

From what I understand, there are two lines of attack from my opposition colleagues.

The first, just so I understand, is some kind of alleged impropriety in relation to Ms. Verschuren's appointment. What I want to get at is.... You said it's not unheard of—and it strikes me that it makes eminent sense—for a minister or department to reach out to quality individuals to encourage them to apply for positions. Is that right?

[Donnalyn McClymont]

Mr. Chair, that is absolutely correct. It's part of the outreach strategy, and the expectation is that the minister's office, the department, and in some cases the ministers themselves will reach out to candidates to encourage them to apply.