Evidence of meeting #147 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.)
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
As I said, Mr. Perkins is in control of his time. Thus far, the conversation has gone fairly well, despite a few interruptions here and there. In addition, the witness has had the opportunity to speak a number of times.
Mr. Perkins, you have three and a half minutes.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Whether it's $10 million, $30 million or $50 million, it's contrary to the act. You broke the act that you served under. The SDTC act says that you cannot personally benefit.
When SDTC made investments in your companies while you were on the board, you broke the act. Did you not?
Founder and managing partner, Cycle Capital Management, As an Individual
No, I—
Conservative
Founder and managing partner, Cycle Capital Management, As an Individual
According to the ethics and governance principles we learn when we join the board of directors, we must declare any conflicts of interest and recuse ourselves when necessary. The same holds true at the Business Development Bank of Canada, Export Development Canada, Canadian National and all companies linked to the Canadian government or any other government in Canada. That's standard business practice.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
The easiest way to avoid a conflict when you're on a public board and spending taxpayer money is to not vote and have a board you're sitting on give money to companies that you own interest in.
Now, I will ask you this again. When you joined the board in 2016, the value of Cycle Capital and its assets under management was a little over $140 million, and when you left it was $600 million. It seems like it was pretty good business for Cycle Capital to get money from SDTC, where you're on the board and you also utilized it to screen companies.
Founder and managing partner, Cycle Capital Management, As an Individual
First of all, in your statement, you are conflating the notions of assets under management and fund value. What you're talking about is the notion of assets under management.
Over five years, we've probably performed well enough to raise more funds. However, our performance values were never posted, since we represent a private fund, not a public one. We have several funds under management. So you're confusing those two concepts.
Conservative
Founder and managing partner, Cycle Capital Management, As an Individual
I'm quite surprised, Mr. Perkins, given that you sit on the Business Development Bank of Canada. This is the kind of detail you understand very well.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
It's from your website.
When the culture of corruption on the board by Annette Verschuren came on and changed, there were nine directors, including your colleague, Guy Ouimet, who voted for money for himself. You had money given to your companies. Stephen Kukucha had money given to his companies.
There is a culture of corruption that you were participating in by approving not only your money, but money to other board members. Isn't that correct?
Founder and managing partner, Cycle Capital Management, As an Individual
That's completely untrue. I'm convinced that when the president, Jim Balsillie, welcomed me—
October 28th, 2024 / 12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
You didn't vote for Mr. Kukucha's companies. You didn't vote for Mr. Ouimet's companies. You didn't vote for your own because you left the room.
Founder and managing partner, Cycle Capital Management, As an Individual
The link you are making with corruption is completely unacceptable, Mr. Perkins. It's false.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
What's unacceptable is that board members who were appointed, whether they were Liberals or separatists, were using this fund in a little, cozy group to support each other's companies. That's exactly what happened. That's what the Auditor General found.
If you had been a Governor in Council appointment, do you believe the Ethics Commissioner would have found you not guilty?
Founder and managing partner, Cycle Capital Management, As an Individual
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Do you think he would have found you not guilty or guilty of breaking the ethics laws of Canada?
Founder and managing partner, Cycle Capital Management, As an Individual
The Ethics Commissioner can draw his own conclusions. I'm not the Ethics Commissioner. All I can say is that, when I joined the board of directors, I was told how to behave, and I've always behaved as instructed. I went even further, because I declared potential conflicts of interest, not just conflicts of interest.
I would remind you that in 28 out of 32 cases, the conflicts of interest were potential or perceived, not true conflicts of interest.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much.
Mr. Erskine-Smith, you are next for five minutes, please.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
Thanks, Chair.
My NDP colleague Mr. Cannings has said that he's new and is trying to get to the bottom of things.
The Auditor General report lays out mismanagement of conflicts and record-keeping. Here we have a very good example of just that.
You are articulating that you declared potential conflicts. That obviously was not adequately captured in the processes such that here you have Conservatives screaming about actual conflicts, and they listed names of companies, and you're answering no to the vast majority of them.
Was there ever an instance, apart from the COVID approval, where you approved funds for a company that you had a stake in as a board member or you didn't recuse yourself?
Founder and managing partner, Cycle Capital Management, As an Individual
The only situation is the one I explained in my opening remarks about support measures related to COVID‑19. As it was an omnibus resolution, we didn't have—
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
Right.
Just so I'm crystal clear, the Ethics Commissioner has found, in relation to Ms. Verschuren, that that did amount to a violation of the law but, as the commissioner found, it was premised on incorrect legal advice.
To the extent that there was any inadvertence here, it's with respect to the COVID approval, and it's based on advice that you received from corporate counsel. Is that correct?
Founder and managing partner, Cycle Capital Management, As an Individual
Yes, that's the legal advice we received. All the board members had gathered, and we discussed it. That included the governance committee, the president and CEO and the chair. It was debated, and we followed that advice in good faith. That's all I can say. I would remind you that, personally—
Founder and managing partner, Cycle Capital Management, As an Individual
—that amounts to $250.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
It is laughable that you have been subject to the character assassination that you have been subjected to. You're a serious person in business. You have devoted yourself, as you say, to addressing climate change. When you were starting out, it was a very small sector in this country, and it has rightfully grown.
Why, if we have a future Conservative government that is going to govern by the.... If you listen to the opposition today, they're going to govern with character assassination and crayons. Why would any serious person involve themselves in the day-to-day of that government in supporting the work on a board like you served on if they are going after serious people without evidence, as they've clearly done today and over the last number of weeks?