Evidence of meeting #147 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.)
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I move to adjourn the debate on this motion.
(Motion agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Very well.
Ms. Méthot, I would kindly ask you to retake your seat.
Madam Yip, you have the floor for four and a half minutes.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Okay.
Madam Méthot, with all that has happened, I don't think you were given the opportunity to defend yourself. Do you have anything else you would like to add?
Founder and managing partner, Cycle Capital Management, As an Individual
During my opening statement, I said everything that mattered. You will receive the text of the speech and the detailed table. That way, Mr. Perkins will have detailed answers on the list. You will also have the Canada Infrastructure Bank’s document, which outlines my behaviour throughout every single meeting. I know that is something Mr. Perkins was very interested in. I am very pleased to provide you with this confidential information.
Furthermore, I reiterate my willingness and my interest in having an in-depth dialogue, including with my detractors, so that we can discuss the facts and do so in the interests of Canadian entrepreneurs in the technology sector. As MPs, you all represent people, entrepreneurs and people trying to build businesses. It will always be in my interest to participate in that kind of dialogue and continue moving entrepreneurs as far forward as possible, especially entrepreneurs in clean technology.
I do not think I have to present any defence, Ms. Yip. I have nothing to defend. I only have the truth to tell, such as it is, quite simply.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Thank you.
What impacts has the continued Conservative politicization of SDTC had on the clean-tech industry?
Founder and managing partner, Cycle Capital Management, As an Individual
It is hard for me to talk to you about the industry as a whole, because I don’t have an ongoing conversation with its representatives every single day. What I can tell you is that there are concerns, because SDTC is a program that’s been in place for many years and it moved a lot of things forward.
I can talk about the impact these debates had on me. Being attacked by people telling lies is really not easy. When one builds a reputation over a period of 25, 30, 35 years, doing so with one’s heart, while asking one’s family to make sacrifices, it is truly a hardship to be destroyed by lies in the public arena. However, because I am a person who truly believes that we must move dialogue forward, I extend my hand to Mr. Perkins.
I often go to Halifax, Mr. Perkins. We have businesses in your lovely riding.
We are there to help. I am here to help you and help your entrepreneurs succeed.
I will never hold it against you, Mr. Perkins, but you’ve caused me sleepless nights. Because of you, I felt diminished; attacked. My spouse had never seen me like that before, but I am still here to help, because I profoundly believe in what I do. I dedicated my life to this cause, and neither political interests nor tweets on X will make me give up.
As we say back home, in my family in Baie‑Comeau, what doesn’t kill us makes us stronger. So I will seize the opportunity to thank you, Mr. Perkins.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
I am sorry. You have already stated several times that you feel that your reputation has been tarnished. Previously you had started to say something about your being a woman and then you were cut off.
Founder and managing partner, Cycle Capital Management, As an Individual
I often got the impression I was attacked because I am a woman, because I am a Quebecker, because I am an environmentalist or because I am known. I don’t know. However, if Mr. Perkins is interested in having a coffee one day, it would be my pleasure to talk about it with him. I would like to know what deep motivations are pushing him to attack a Canadian woman trying to build businesses.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much.
Up next is Mr. Perkins.
You have the floor for five minutes, please.
October 28th, 2024 / 1:35 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
The Auditor General raised that almost $400 million of funds were either conflicted or spent outside the terms of the agreement. That's my concern on behalf of taxpayers.
I'm sorry if it offends you that my concern is that, by your own admission, your companies received $10.4 million while you were on the board. It's not my concern that you feel offended by it. My concern is that you clearly were in a conflict of interest.
I want to go in a different vein. In your time on the board, according to the lobbyist registry, you lobbied government 51 times between 2016 and 2021 for various aspects of SDTC's needs. I don't know if you were in the meetings; it's under your name. Steven Guilbeault, prior to his election, is listed on those registrations 47 times.
Were you both doing the lobbying together or was Mr. Guilbeault doing it on his own?
Founder and managing partner, Cycle Capital Management, As an Individual
First, those meetings were held in compliance with all lobbying rules. If you can read them, it is because they were reported.
Mr. Steven Guilbeault and I toured Canada after a study we did that revealed underfunding. When Mr. Guilbeault went into politics, believe it or not, we went to see Albertan politicians. We went to Halifax, to Ontario, to Quebec. We even met politicians at the federal—
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
I didn't look for your travel schedule. I was very straightforward.
Was Mr. Guilbeault .... It's true. He was in lobbying 47 times. Eleven were with the Prime Minister's Office, including Mr. Butts. Two were with Minister Bains, and actually six times were with future minister Champagne.
It appears that you had a lot of high-level access to those folks in Ottawa.
You mentioned Mr. Guilbeault's interest as some sort of compensation. He lists it still that he has it on his public disclosure of conflict of interest.
Since the time that you were on the board until recently, the value of your company has gone up six times. Is it fair to say that Mr. Guilbeault's investments, whatever those are, have gone up six times?
Founder and managing partner, Cycle Capital Management, As an Individual
We are going to settle this very simply. First, Mr. Guilbeault had a passive interest. When he left, his interest ended and its value did not increase. You are mixing up assets under management and the company’s value.
Second, Mr. Perkins, you were on the Business Development Bank of Canada’s board of directors when you granted a passive interest to bank employees who were managing those funds. Mr. Guilbeault was treated exactly the same way as any other adviser in any other venture capital fund in Canada, Europe or America.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Are you saying that Minister Guilbeault's filings on the conflict of interest in 2023, which list an interest in Cycle Capital, are incorrect and that he made a false disclosure of conflict of interest?
Founder and managing partner, Cycle Capital Management, As an Individual
If Mr. Guilbeault holds a passive interest, as I just said, which is a kind of performance bonus, he has to report it. That is his responsibility, and the commissioner must manage—
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
No, he only has to declare what he currently owns, not what he used to own in some time before he was elected. It's what he currently owns, and he's still listed.
I'll move on because—
Founder and managing partner, Cycle Capital Management, As an Individual
To answer your question, Mr. Perkins, he always held what he said he held. I know this because we are the ones who provide him with that information every year, and our auditors review it.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Well, he still has it. Otherwise, he wouldn't declare it.
I'll move on.
How many investments has Brookfield made in your funds, and what's the value?
Founder and managing partner, Cycle Capital Management, As an Individual
Who are you talking about?
Conservative
Founder and managing partner, Cycle Capital Management, As an Individual
He was an investor in our first fund, which did not perform as well as the current fund.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
You also list them on all your press releases as an “industrial partner”. What's an industrial partner?
Founder and managing partner, Cycle Capital Management, As an Individual
We have many industry partners, including L’Oreal, Hydro‑Quebec, Alouette, Alcan and Brookfield. They are big private companies, or public companies on the market, who decided to invest in the investment fund. They are on the same footing as all the investors in our funds.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
You list them as an industrial partner, as a financing partner on your funds.
In 2017—