Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 4th, 2024

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Will any of you receive severance packages?

[Ziyad Rahme]

Mr. Chair, I'm focused right now on that transition and on supporting the board in its mandate.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

You're going to receive severance packages—

[Ziyad Rahme]

Any decision related to that will be a decision for the board in the future.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I see. Can you confirm or deny whether severance packages have been talked about among the executives on the board?

[Ziyad Rahme]

Mr. Chair, as I said, I'm really focused right now on the transition and the board, and that will be one of its decisions in the future, once this transition is complete. It's anticipated for some time in Q4 of this fiscal year.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

If you want to try again, Mr. Masse, I'll allow it.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I have one last quick one. This is important. I just want to make sure that our researchers have this. Can they confirm or not confirm whether the transfer to the NRC will give the employees the same rights and privileges as PSAC or other types of workers have in-house at the public service? I'd like that for the committee at some point.

I think the chair needs to step in about the information I'm requesting, out of all humility, right now, Mr. Chair. I'm not being listened to.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Very good. I'm going to let it play out a little longer, Mr. Masse, but your question was certainly clear, and the answer was sidestepped.

I'm going to turn now to Mr. Cooper.

You have the floor for five minutes please.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Rahme, on January 18, 2022, you wrote to the Verschuren Centre and stated that SDTC would “give best efforts” to help the Verschuren Centre secure funding. The whistle-blower stated in his testimony that “unprecedented” efforts were made by employees using SDTC's reputation to help secure funding for the Verschuren Centre, and we know that not long afterwards, you indicated that SDTC would undertake its best efforts to assist and that the Verschuren Centre received nearly $10 million in funding from ISED and ACOA.

How is it possible that you thought it was appropriate to use taxpayer-funded resources at SDTC to help secure funding for the chair's personal vanity project?

[Ziyad Rahme]

Mr. Chair, as I have previously said, we do have a common practice for applicants who don't make it through our own process. We try to refer them to other funding programs, whether those are federal or provincial, and we try to assist in that referral process. I don't recall the specifics. My recollection is, once the referrals were done—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Mr. Rahme, I appreciate that there is a general practice or a general process, but this was not a normal application. It was an application from the Verschuren Centre, in the name of the chair. It was her vanity project. She served as a director. Staff flagged the funding request for $6.8 million from SDTC to be in a conflict. Therefore, if that's a conflict, isn't it also a conflict, or doesn't it give rise to the perception of a conflict, for SDTC to say that it can't fund them directly, but it's going to be the agent of the Verschuren Centre to help secure funding from other government departments and agencies?

[Ziyad Rahme]

Mr. Chair, again, we assisted with referrals. Once those referrals were done, my recollection is that we were no longer involved in any other application or diligence or whatever it may have been. It's up to those funding agencies to make[Inaudible—Editor]—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

The whistle-blower said that “unprecedented” efforts were taken to help secure funding—and that would be supported by the fact that you confirmed that SDTC did provide assistance. Then, just by coincidence, $10 million arrived at the Verschuren Centre from none other than the Department of Industry, from none other than ACOA, and SDTC, just by coincidence, falls under that department as well.

Are you disputing what the whistle-blower stated in his testimony?

[Ziyad Rahme]

Mr. Chair, just to repeat what I've said, we have a referral process. Once that referral is done, we're not involved in any of the decisions, and we're not involved—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I don't understand, and I would like you to explain because you wrote the letter. If there's a conflict of interest to fund the project, because it's the chair's vanity project, wouldn't the obvious thing be to walk away entirely from the Verschuren Centre, as opposed to saying that you're going to take your best efforts and then direct staff to assist in helping to secure funding for that project?

[Ziyad Rahme]

Again, Mr. Chair, to repeat my answer, we've—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Do you not see the conflict? Do you not see the perception of a conflict? I mean, this is an organization that is riddled with conflict, so many conflicts that, within hours of the Auditor General's report, the minister shut down SDTC. Do you not see the conflict or the perception of the conflict with what you wrote when you said, in effect, “We're going to help you even though we're conflicted to fund you directly. We're going to do indirectly what we can't do directly”?

[Ziyad Rahme]

Mr. Chair, our role wasn't to provide funding. We provided referral—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

No, but to act as an agent of Annette Verschuren's vanity project, after which she got $10 million from the very same department that SDTC fell under Industry....

[Ziyad Rahme]

Again, Mr. Chair, to repeat my answer, we weren't involved in the decision-making at all. We wouldn't have participated in that—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

You don't see a conflict. No wonder this is such a mess. It's all about helping insiders at SDTC. We'll leave the room and get funding for a company. Well, we can't fund the chair's accelerator directly, but we'll go around and we'll help them behind the scenes. It's really unacceptable.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Cooper.

We'll finish up this round, and then we'll have a recess for 15 minutes.

Ms. Yip, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for coming today.

Mr. Rahme, would you like to finish any comments? I don't believe you were given an opportunity to answer the questions.

[Ziyad Rahme]

Mr. Chair, no, we can proceed if you have any questions for me. I'm okay.