Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 4th, 2024

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Your recommendations dealt with that. Also, the new board has now implemented all of them completely except for the one that they're reviewing with outside parties about the awarding of funds. They've all been addressed now, so that should be cleared up going forward. There should be no further confusion. Is that right?

[Karen Hogan]

I haven't followed up on the actions that any of the board members or the foundation have taken to respond to our recommendations, but I would trust that, if they were properly designed and implemented, they should address the issues we have raised.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. That is the time.

That brings us back to Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné for two and a half minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Let's talk about that very recommendation, number 29, which SDTC partially agreed to.

The members of the current board confirmed for the committee that a consulting firm was in the process of reviewing the eligibility of projects.

Mr. Rahme, can you please confirm the name of the consulting firm?

[Ziyad Rahme]

The board has retained three independent audit firms to assist with that. If I recall correctly, they are BDO, PWC and Deloitte, three very well-respected audit firms.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Rahme.

Can you confirm whether you will be reviewing all the projects, including those that were already reviewed by the Auditor General?

[Ziyad Rahme]

Mr. Chair, I can confirm that we will be reviewing all of the projects. I don't recall exactly after discussion with the Auditor General, but I think they conveyed to us that it would not be necessary to again go over the projects in their sample that they determined to be eligible. Otherwise, all of their projects will be reviewed from the sample period.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I see.

I have to tell you that somewhat conflicts with what we heard from a board member, who said that all the projects would be reviewed, whether or not the Auditor General had found them to be eligible.

There's another question we didn't get an answer to before, so I'm hoping you can answer it.

What will happen if a project the Auditor General found to be ineligible is deemed eligible by the consultants?

Will you follow the decision the Auditor General's office came to or the one made by the consulting firms you hired?

[Ziyad Rahme]

Mr. Chair, I don't believe I'm able to answer that question. Certainly, the review of those projects that were determined to be ineligible is ongoing.

I think we need to let the process work itself out, and if we get to that situation, the board will take the necessary actions in terms of what needs to be done.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

The easy answer, and probably the right answer in this case, would be to go with the Auditor General's findings, regardless of what the consulting firms decide.

Thank you, Mr. Rahme.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Up next is Ms. Blaney.

It's nice to have you back. You have the floor for two and a half minutes, please.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. It's always good to be back.

It's very nice to see you, Ms. Hogan. Usually we're talking about veterans, but I'm really excited to be here with you today.

My question is about the role your office plays. We know, with the current situation, that there's a lot of tension and a lot of things happening.

If there is an increased request for information for documents, will that have an impact on your office and the work you do?

[Karen Hogan]

Do you mean an increased request for us to provide documentation in our file related to this audit?

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I mean this audit and specifically this committee. We know that more continues to be released and more information is coming out. Also, there's more interest, I guess, in the details of it. I'm just curious as to whether there are going to be extra resources if the committee calls on you to provide information.

[Karen Hogan]

Again, I think it would depend on what the request would be, whom the information belongs to, and when information needs to be provided in both official languages if it hasn't been translated. But typically the information contained in our files belongs to the government and it would be my expectation that the government provide that information directly to Parliament and not through us. Obviously, because of this order, we have spent some time with Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada trying to understand the security classifications and redactions that they put on the documents, because we must respect that. So it has absolutely had an impact on our office, but not to an undue degree at this point.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

That's helpful to me. Thank you for that.

My next question just flows from that, which is that we know that when these kinds of events happen, there are more and more times that you are requested to come forward to things like this committee and have these discussions.

I'm wondering as we hit this crisis point if there is any need for your office to have more resources to deal with the day-to-day other activities that you need to do. I'm trying to better understand what happens to the Auditor General's office when a crisis comes out and these kinds of requests are coming forward. Are you still able, with the resources you have, to do your work, or does the amount of time that your office is having to put into getting information and having discussions take away from the other things you must do? I'm just curious about that.

[Karen Hogan]

As we mentioned earlier in the hearing, at times we are either stopping or pausing an ongoing audit to deal with a request that might come through. I think ultimately my office has the resources it needs at this moment to do the work that we want to do and deliver about 25 performance audits for Parliament and the territorial legislatures. I would obviously love it if someone could find extra hours in a day for me personally, but I'm always pleased to come to hearings and speak about our work. I believe that this is hugely important for our office to be able to support the Senate and the House of Commons.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. That is the time.

Mr. Cooper, you have five minutes, please.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

To the Auditor General, Ms. Hogan, just for the record, to be clear, you're not a lawyer, police investigator or an expert to determine whether there was a conspiracy to commit fraud or those types of matters, correct?

[Karen Hogan]

You're correct. I am a CPA.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Okay. Thank you very much for that. I would submit that that further underscores why it's necessary for the government to turn over all of the documents to the RCMP instead of continuing to obstruct Parliament, and instead of trying to use you as a shield to say, where was the criminal intent, when you don't look at criminal intent, correct?

[Karen Hogan]

Our audit isn't designed to uncover intent or fraud. However, when we do find something that we believe might be potentially fraud or criminal in nature, we would refer that to law enforcement.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I'm going to turn my next set of questions to Mr. Rahme.

Mr. Rahme, with respect to the seed funding stream, is it correct that in order to receive funding under that stream an applicant needed an accelerator to nominate them?

[Ziyad Rahme]

Mr. Chair, in that process, we partnered with over 80 accelerators from across the country.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

There's no question that an accelerator—