Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 6th, 2024

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

You're not a criminal investigator. You have responded to Mr. McCauley that the individuals you are working with, in terms of a repayment agreement, have signed a document that absolves them of any liability, any criminality and any responsibility. In essence, they chose, intentionally, to double, triple or perhaps quadruple time for the work they did. The Government of Canada paid them for those services. That, by its very definition, Madame Poulin, is fraud. That's an intentional act to deprive the taxpayer of funds.

How many of those subcontractors is the Government of Canada working with currently? How many? I would just like the number.

[Catherine Poulin]

Before concluding that fraud occurred, you should know that no main contractor submitted an invoice for more than 7.5 hours. That's important to note.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Madame Poulin, this is my time. The question was very specific and direct.

How many subcontractors who doubled, tripled or quadrupled billing to the Government of Canada are you working with on repayment agreements? Give me just the number, please.

[Catherine Poulin]

Thank you for the question.

The answer is zero.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Zero. Who are you working with, then? What agreements are you trying to have them sign and repay?

[Arianne Reza]

Perhaps you'll permit me to add clarity to this.

We have referred seven cases to the RCMP, as we've described. These are individuals, consultants, who have committed time theft. We are negotiating with or seeking restitution from the prime. That is our contractual relationship. They are paying us back. The negotiation settlement agreement is with the prime, who's also been defrauded. We are not negotiating with the consultants. They're going right to the RCMP.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thanks for the clarification, Ms. Reza, because the impression I received—and I'm sure taxpayers have received—is that you're cutting breaks for potential fraudsters. That is not the case. The Government of Canada is not doing that.

Where there is a suspicion of fraudulent activity or any criminal activity, you are defaulting to the RCMP. Is that correct?

[Catherine Poulin]

That's correct.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Regarding the contractors you're working with on repayment agreements, how much money has been recovered?

[Catherine Poulin]

Mr. Chair, I thank the member for his question.

As mentioned earlier, that amount is approximately $800,000, of which $420,000 has been reimbursed. We've been told that the remaining $380,000 would be reimbursed, but we're waiting for the payment.

[Arianne Reza]

That's the first installment. There's more money coming, as we've noted at this committee before, or at OGGO. There's $4.5 million of fraud. We're not stopping at $800,000. We're seeking restitution and building the capacity. What was in individual departments is now vested in PSPC to collect it.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

There's $800,000, potentially, in total. Half of that has been repaid. Is that correct?

[Catherine Poulin]

Thank you for the question.

Yes, we've received $400,000, and we're waiting—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

What's the time frame to recover the balance of the $800,000?

[Catherine Poulin]

We've reached out to all the suppliers. Some of them still have time to respond. I think we should be getting the last of the responses by the end of November.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That's pretty much your time, Mr. Brock. I'll give you a few extra seconds next time to make up for it.

Up next is Ms. Khalid, or will Ms. Yip take the round?

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I will take her time.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ms. Yip, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

This is just so I understand everything. It was mentioned after Mr. Brock's questions that those seven have been referred to the RCMP. The others have paid you back, and you are still negotiating....

[Arianne Reza]

Let me start, if you'll permit me, to give a bit of a frame. We now have the data analytical tools to be able to do data mining across the Government of Canada.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I'm sorry. I'm having difficulty hearing.

[Arianne Reza]

We started to go back. We now have a new set of data analytical tools. We use all kinds of different software. We're now looking holistically across the Government of Canada to see where there is time fraud. We're looking at different contracts. We see the consultants underneath them. We see if they're working concurrently, for example, at the OAG or PSPC, and we identify time fraud. There's a methodology that goes with it.

The cases in which we see it's intentional and there's fraud get referred to the RCMP. Since we started doing this work, Madame Poulin has referred about seven cases to the RCMP.

There is also an association of restitution. They owe us money for the time fraud. Again, we've started to go to the contractors—our relationship is with the prime—to indicate that they had a resource that was cleared and doing work but was defrauding the Crown.

We put together a restitution package, as I noted earlier, before departments go after the fraud individually. It was not an efficient way to do it. Under the leadership of Madame Poulin.... She's put together a team to go out, negotiate with and advise contractors who don't know—I think that has been your experience—that they're involved in fraud or that the resources they've cleared or have working are involved in fraud. We then negotiate to get the monies back. I think this approach started in about June.

[Catherine Poulin]

Yes, it started in July.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

How far have we gotten in that process?

[Catherine Poulin]

There were 35 contractors that we reached out to. I'm pleased to say that...we have communicated with all of the prime contractors. Some contractors have already agreed to pay. Some have said that they will pay, and we're just waiting for the payments. Some have asked to have a meeting with us, because some want to understand a bit more about what happened.

A couple have said that they think they have no responsibilities within that and are basically refusing to pay right now. We are awaiting answers. We have given an end date to some people. They have to respond to us by that date, and they still have time to respond. Nobody is behind their date to reply to us. In fact, we have had great success in getting answers back from those prime contractors.