Evidence of meeting #152 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sdtc.
A video is available from Parliament.
November 20th, 2024 / 5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
DeNova received public funding as part of the bioreactor project while you had indirect interests in this company. As president of the board of directors, you benefited from your friendship with Mr. Noseworthy, as well as from your position, to enrich yourself and Sandpiper. In the end, you took the opportunity to grow your personal interests.
Is that correct?
As an Individual
I'll go back to the Verschuren Centre. It is a not-for-profit eco centre that was sponsoring entrepreneurs and companies to grow their organizations. There was no investment by me personally, no investment at all either directly or indirectly.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much. That's the time we have.
Our next witness is Mr Cannings.
You have the floor for six minutes, please.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Thank you.
As I think we've already established, I'm not a witness.
However, I'm very happy that Ms. Verschuren is here before us today.
I thank you for being here, and I appreciate that you've appeared before other committees on this. I'm new to this committee. I'm new to this file and this issue, so forgive me if I go over some ground that you've gone over.
I ask for the forgiveness of my committee colleagues if I go over some ground that you've already heard. I'm trying to get a grasp on this important situation.
The way I understand it, we had the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner release a report, the “Verschuren Report”, back in July that found that you, Ms. Verschuren, had failed to comply with the decision-making and duty to recuse parts of the Conflict of Interest Act in parts of your actions around SDTC.
I'm not an expert in conflict of interest. I did sit on a couple of administrative tribunals where I received training from judges on what conflict of interest was, and as I remember, the most important thing was the perception of a conflict of interest—what the person on the street would think if presented with the facts of a case on whether the person was in conflict. The main thing was to recognize these.
When I was sitting on a panel, to make the right decision as to whether to recuse myself from a proceeding...there wasn't so much. It was mostly recusal in that case.
It seems that you did declare potential conflicts to the board of directors, and you abstained from voting on most of these funding decisions that involved SDTC and the Verschuren Centre or MaRS. You did abstain from voting on most of these decisions. On four occasions, it seems that you didn't abstain from making those decisions. You did not recuse yourself in any of these cases.
I'm just trying to figure out what your personal policy or the policy of the board of directors was on how you handled these conflict of interest decisions. When did you decide to recuse yourself from the discussion? Did you ever leave the room, or did you just not take part? When did you decide that you would not vote?
It seems very important. I guess I'm having a hard time deciding or understanding what your decision-making process was around those conflict of interest situations.
As an Individual
The Ethics Commissioner found that I took what I believed at the time to be proper steps and that I believed at the time that I had acted within the bounds of the act. I really did.
There were two things that he talked about. He said that I was somewhat led astray in terms of the lack of consistency in the decision-making process at SDTC. I really declared conflicts. One of the things that I should have done better was, instead of abstaining, I should have recused myself, but that was the process that was established and what I followed at SDTC. I accept the Ethics Commissioner's findings.
He also found that there was no evidence that I attempted to influence the decisions of my colleagues on the SDTC board.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
If I understand you correctly, you were following a sort of general procedure that the board used, but that procedure, for whatever reason, seems to have run afoul of the Conflict of Interest Act, according to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, because, as you mentioned, you did point out that you failed to comply with that act on some occasions, especially around non-recusal. There were, as I say, four decisions where you were making a decision on funding companies that were involved with the Verschuren Centre and MaRS, and you even voted on those.
Was there a difference in those situations? Do you recall why you would have voted on those, but, for the most part, you did not vote on the others?
As an Individual
Look, it was clear that I made some mistakes. I should have recused myself where I abstained, and on a couple of occasions, it wasn't recorded that I did that. Yes, there were areas where I should have been more on top of and declared these things faster. These were all, I think, perceived conflicts as well. That was where I should have been more particular and more detailed, and I didn't follow the process.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you, Mr. Cannings.
We are now beginning our second round, which will consist of six members for various times.
Mr. Brock, you're leading us off for five minutes, please.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you for your attendance again, Ms. Verschuren. There are a couple of loose ends I want to pick up on from the first round with my colleague Mr. Perkins.
Through information received from the head of the appointment process at the PCO, Donnalyn McClymont, we received certain information with respect to the recruitment process and the actual hiring.
It would appear that applications were received by the PCO on October 12, 2018, and 56 applicants applied. The PCO interviewed eight to March 15, 2019. Of those eight, five were recommended to be reviewed by Minister Bains at that time. However, none of those five passed whatever sort of threshold test Minister Bains had applied, because during that interim period from October 2018 to May 2, 2019, another 47 applicants applied. They were shortlisted to 16. Three were ultimately interviewed. You were part of that process. In fact, you had applied after your conversation or conversations with Minister Bains on April 30, 2019. A total of six recommendations were sent to Minister Bains.
With that timeline in place, to the best of your recollection, when do you recall first receiving that phone call from Minister Bains? If it wasn't from Minister Bains, was it from someone in his office? Explain that process to us, please.
As an Individual
I don't recall the date when I received that phone call. I don't recall the date of that.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
We know you applied on April 30, 2019. Was it the day before? Was it a week before? Was it a month before? Does that help you recollect? Your application was filed on April 30, 2019.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Okay.
Was this just a cold call out of the blue? You picked up the phone when it rang and heard, “Hi there, Ms. Verschuren. This is Minister Bains. I have something to present to you.” Was it something like that, or was there a process?
Was there an email? Was there a letter that set up a specific time when he wanted to reach out to you? What can you recall about the process?
As an Individual
The process was probably in the context of advice I was giving him as part of his industry portfolio. I think he talked to me once outside of a telephone call. I just do not recall what he said at that time.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
It must have been flattering to you that he would consider you for this very important position.
You clearly indicated you wanted some time to think about it. Was there more than one phone call from Minister Bains, again, highly recommending to you that you apply for this position? Was there more than one? I got the impression when you initially testified at a different committee that there were possibly up to three different phone calls—maybe two—and then you ultimately made the decision to apply.
Does that refresh your memory?
As an Individual
I think there could have been a couple of occasions when he brought this up outside of a telephone call. I was involved in some events he was at. It was a general conversation—
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
I'm sorry. I'm running out of time. I want to ask one last question.
Did you declare your conflict with respect to SDTC during any of those conversations with Minister Bains before you filed your application? Answer yes or no.
As an Individual
I don't recall talking specifically about that conflict, no.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much.
Next is Mr. Drouin, who is joining us remotely.
Mr. Drouin, you have the floor for five minutes, please.
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank the witness who is with us today. I think this is the fourth or fifth time that she is appearing before a parliamentary committee.
I'd like to point out that it's perhaps a little strange for my Conservative colleagues to not understand a new appointment process to public administration boards.
I also want to acknowledge that we do not, in our party, appoint former candidates, like we've seen in the past. I think the name Gary Lunn has already been mentioned. He's a former minister who lost the 2011 election and was suddenly appointed to a board, SDTC, one year later.
Ms. Verschuren, I will leave it at that. I don't want to go back too far. However, I read the report published by the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner. I have a question for you about your ties to NRStor.
Before the company was awarded funding, did you receive any dividends or any type of payment from this company?
As an Individual
Do you mean from the investments I had in NRStor, from that project?
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
Did you receive a bonus once SDTC decided to award funding to the company? If so, was that communicated to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner? Did you receive anything else at all?