Evidence of meeting #154 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sdtc.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thanks so much. You spoke about your vantage point and your involvement with SDTC with respect to the issue that we're discussing today.
Can you tell me whether you were in a position to have access to the information about conflicts of interest, whether you did have access and whether you acted on it or not?
As an Individual
I certainly did not have access to that information. I suspect that, if I had gone looking for it, in some sort of forensic way, I possibly could have received it. I did not see that as my role. I saw the responsibility on conflict of interest, as is the case with every board, as a fiduciary responsibility of individuals and as a responsibility of the organization to have good practices.
I expected, at the end of the day, the organization to bring issues to my attention if there were problems, and that did not occur. If it had occurred, I absolutely would have gone looking.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Do you find that you have failed ISED in the role you've played, with this whole debacle we've been experiencing over the past number of months and years?
As an Individual
I certainly look at the situation that's in front of us with regret. I believe that my staff and I did what we could with the resources we had at the time. I believe that there is a fundamental issue here around the governance of organizations like independent foundations and around how governments need to balance the issue of independence and oversight. I believe that there are important lessons to learn in that space.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Have you made any money, being in the role that you are in, from the organizations that have interacted with SDTC?
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you.
How do you view SDTC's transition into the NRC? How do you think it will improve, or what are some of the challenges you think they will face?
As an Individual
I have not looked at it in detail. I can only look at the issue in principle. I believe that there is a decent alignment between the work of the NRC in the programs it has and SDTC. I believe there is a potential efficiency associated with integrating SDTC into that organization. I'm optimistic that doing so will eliminate the types of issues and concerns we've been talking about here today around administration and oversight.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you.
Lastly, I'll ask you this: Have you had any interactions with any minister with respect to the SDTC file throughout your tenure and especially with respect to the issue that we're discussing today?
As an Individual
The short answer would be no.
I believe there may have been one or two occasions when I briefed either Minister Champagne or former minister Bains when they were going into a meeting with a company that had obtained SDTC funding, where we told them what happened in terms of funding for that company. However, that would have been an extremely routine thing. I believe former minister Bains, at one point in time, spoke at an SDTC event, and I reviewed his speech with him in advance of that.
To my knowledge, those are the only interactions I had with ministers on this matter.
Liberal
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much, Ms. Khalid.
Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Mr. Noseworthy, I asked you this question, and I would have liked the answer during my last turn: When you said that you were speaking with SDTC management about your doubts about the ecosystem component, who were you talking about?
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Wasn't Mr. Knubley part of those discussions? Did you never inform him of the doubts you had about the ecosystem component, which wasn't compliant with the contribution agreement?
As an Individual
It would not have been routine to discuss that kind of matter with the deputy minister.
The discussions we had at the staff level with SDTC allayed our concerns, to the point where we were comfortable with the project proceeding on a pilot basis with further review.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Mr. Noseworthy, do you think it's no big deal that a foundation using public money doesn't respect the contribution agreement, in other words, the contract between the government and the foundation to manage that money? Do you think it isn't serious and that there's no reason to report it to your superior? That's pretty serious stuff. That was identified by the Auditor General.
Do you acknowledge those findings? Did you think it wasn't important enough to talk to your deputy minister about it?
As an Individual
Of course, at the time we assessed it, we saw compliance. We saw potential concerns, but we were looking at it further and anticipating it proceeding as a pilot, so there was no need—
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Perhaps it's a matter of interpretation, but are you telling us that you saw compliance or that there wasn't compliance?
As an Individual
We raised concerns with SDTC. They satisfied those concerns in a manner sufficient for us to allow the project to proceed.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
It's very simple. A proposed fund whose description doesn't even mention sustainable development was enough to supposedly convince you that it corresponded to the contribution agreement.
Two projects were identified in the Auditor General's report. In the case of the ALUS project, it was $5 million paid to the best friend of the CEO of SDTC, Leah Lawrence.
In the case of the Saskatchewan Indian Institute of Technologies project, the application was written by the same person who was doing the assessment. Both of these projects were approved right under your nose, with no mention of sustainable development and no compliance with the contribution agreement. You allowed millions of dollars to be approved, and you didn't see fit to talk to your supervisor about it either. Don't you think money is important?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
We'll let our witness answer, please, Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné.
You have the floor to answer the question. Go ahead, please.
As an Individual
Mr. Chair, I was not aware of the conflict related to that project with the individual who was just mentioned. It was not brought to my attention by SDTC staff, nor was my staff aware of it.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much.
Up next is Mr. Cannings for two and a half minutes.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Thank you.
I'll go back to where I was in my previous questions. That was around how these board decisions were made and how much consideration was undertaken at each meeting for each decision. Again, we're talking millions of dollars here.
I think you started to say something about how the board treated each of these conversations and that it varied. Perhaps you could finish what you were saying, because you were cut off before.