Public Accounts Committee on June 7th, 2022

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

One might assume also—and it's not just me talking here, as I'm looking at some of the work that the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, the OECD, has done on a just transition in terms of concrete policy action taken by democracies—that the work only really began in 2015 with the UN sustainable development goals, the policy perspective taken by the International Labour Organization and the Paris accord. There have only been a few years for countries to put innovative policy in place to meet the needs of a just transition.

I have limited time. I do want to go to NRCan and to ESDC on this issue of formalizing governance structures. Developing an approach is one of the highlighted recommendations from this audit. Governance structure is defined as developing an approach that recognizes the roles and responsibilities and accountabilities that each department would bring to the table to achieve the just transition in Canada.

To representatives of both, how do you plan on making that happen? If there is any work in that direction that you envision, I think our committee would benefit from hearing that.

[John Hannaford]

I'll start, Mr. Chair.

We have a committee structure now that derives from a deputy minister's implementation committee that relates to climate. At both the director general and the director level, we now have a governance structure within the government.

I'd also note that as part of the ongoing work with respect to potential legislation, we have been consulting very widely, including with unions, with a view to establishing some of the principles that should be guiding all policy development in this area and all the work that we will be doing. We also look toward potentially creating an independent body to advise with respect to just transition, which will be another aspect of our overall approach to this.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

Could we hear from ESDC in the remaining time?

[Andrew Brown]

To [Technical difficulty—Editor] jump in there. As we mentioned before, we agree with the recommendations by the commissioner and, with respect to some of the governance, we, along with NRCan, are establishing a committee under the structure of the DMs, a director-level committee that will be established this month. It will be looking at skills and employment programming that will be necessary in continuing to support a just transition.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

I'm afraid that is all your time.

Mr. Blanchette‑Joncas, you now have the floor for two minutes and 30 seconds.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will turn to Mr. Hannaford again to expand on my previous question.

Mr. Hannaford, there's one thing I'd like to understand. If your department receives a directive from the government that's unclear and where roles are not defined, what do you do?

[John Hannaford]

In this context, as I mentioned, we have now established a governance structure that transcends this department and includes other relevant parts of the government to ensure that we are responding to the recommendations made by the commissioner. That work continues.

As I also mentioned, the work that we are doing with respect to potential legislation will further refine some of the policy direction that will be given with respect to our elaboration of just transition. We are also working with provinces and multiple stakeholders on more specific plans at a regional level.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Who is responsible for telling the government that the mandates are not clear, the rules are not defined and there is no governance structure?

[John Hannaford]

As I say, I think we have established a governance structure. This is something that we continue to do—

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I'm going to interrupt you. I will repeat my question.

Who normally notifies the government when there is no governance structure?

I'm not necessarily talking about the audit. I'm talking about what's happening in general within your department.

[John Hannaford]

The department is responsible for what the department does. I am responsible for what the department does. We are now elaborating our strategy with respect to just transition, including this governance.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Hannaford, is the deputy minister normally responsible for communicating with the government when directives are not clear?

[John Hannaford]

I'm not sure I understand the premise of the question.

We have been pursuing a policy that is being elaborated over time. I am accountable for the actions of the department, and the department is now pursuing its strategies with respect to just transition and with respect to the transition of our energy production and—

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Hannaford.

Mr. DeMarco, I will now address you.

I will quote from your report: “We found that the federal government had not established a governance structure…”

Mr. Hannaford tells us otherwise. Who is telling the truth?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

I believe that during the audit period there was no governance system. I believe that—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm very sorry, but I have to interrupt you. Mr. Blanchette‑Joncas will have another turn later.

Turning now to Mr. Desjarlais—

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Excuse me, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to request a written response from the commissioner, please.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Do you have that, Mr. DeMarco? The member is looking for a written answer, please.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses again for your answers.

I would like to turn to the question of how much work is yet to be done in light of Canada's starting point.

One of my colleagues mentioned our relationship in terms of the data compared with other countries with governance structures that are taking this seriously, as you said, and are doing the work within their governments to make sure they can hit their particular international targets within the international community.

Where does Canada rank in comparison with other countries in terms of where we're starting from? They've already begun a process of reducing their emissions. As you mentioned during your opening remarks, Canada has increased its production of greenhouse gases. Where do we currently rank?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

In two of our recent reports, the hydrogen audit and our lessons learned report, we did look at Canada's performance in relation to other G7 nations. We didn't look at all of the approximately 200 nations in the world, but we looked at our closest comparators, which are the G7 nations. We are the worst in terms of our emissions graph from 1990 to now. From 1990 to 2020, the new data that's just been released shows that Canada's emissions are up about 13%. All of the other G7 nations have had decreases in emissions, and some of them vary significantly, including European countries in the G7.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Therefore, is it fair to say that Canada's participation in the reduction of greenhouse gases is actually failing, given the fact that we've increased production of emissions?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Canada has not participated in the reduction of greenhouse gases in terms of results; it's participated in the increase in greenhouse gases and greenhouse gas emissions since 1990. The other six G7 nations have participated in decreasing emissions.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I just have a few moments left.

With regard to our making sure that we have the appropriate energy as a country, but also as a government in making sure that we can hit the targets that are set, it seems incumbent on the government that we actually have to act, in many ways, and set stronger standards than even previously set in order to make up the difference in the backlog to actually get to the targets.

Is that a fair comment?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Governments are often faced with the choice between what is easy and what is right. We're now having to make a lot more difficult choices because governments have done what has been easy and not what has been right for the last 30 years.