Public Accounts Committee on June 7th, 2022

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. I'm going to have to pause it right there.

Turning now to our third round—

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Chair, on a point of order, before we pass this on, can we ask to have the plan and the micro plans later on in writing for the five communities that Mr. McGuire just mentioned?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Yes. We're getting a thumbs-up on that, so thank you very much.

We'll start our third round now.

Mr. Muys, you have the floor for five minutes, but I understand that you might be shifting your time.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Thank you. It's great to be here.

Thank you to the witnesses for their testimony today.

I'd like to start off by reiterating what my colleague said right at the outset, which was that “spending...is not a result”. I want to specifically ask about training skilled workers around some of the comments made by Mr. Brown from ESDC. The reason for this is that in my home province of Ontario we phased out coal some years ago. Nuclear is an important part of the electricity generation going forward, and I know that there are incredible shortages in terms of skilled workers, whether that be boilermakers or linespeople, etc., in order to help generate that electricity.

My observation would be that the Ontario government, under the leadership of the labour minister there, Monte McNaughton, has done all the heavy lifting in terms of attracting workers to the skilled trades. The references you made in your testimony to one federal program, which was going to create 3,500 skilled workers, seem to be at a snail's pace compared to what's going to be needed. In Ontario, it has been estimated that one in five jobs by 2025 will be in the skilled trades.

Maybe you can comment on that, or there may be others in the regional development agencies who also have a perspective on that.

[Andrew Brown]

Great, and thanks for that question.

First off, I would certainly say that, as I mentioned earlier, we're really experiencing across the country labour and skills shortages, which are certainly more acute in some areas than others. We also recognize that further developing and further preparing Canadians to take jobs in the skilled trades is one of the key areas for Canada in terms of being able to meet our labour market needs.

It's also an area where we work with provinces and territories, so this isn't something that we or they do alone in terms of helping people get into the skilled trades. I think it's also an area that's quite relevant with respect to just transition, because we know that over the coming years there are going to be a lot of opportunities with respect to greener energy and the green economy, and we need to help workers acquire the skills to be successful in that new economy.

While some of those workers may come—new workers and youths who are just completing high school or other education—it's also going to depend on people who are part of the workforce right now and are upskilling and re-skilling to ensure they have the skills to be successful in that area.

Chris Bates is one of my colleagues who may be able to add a little bit with respect to the skilled trades.

[Chris Bates, Director General, Apprenticeship and Sectoral Initiatives Directorate, Department of Employment and Social Development]

Yes. Thank you very much.

Just super quickly, the Government of Canada invests about a billion dollars annually in the skilled trades and has made significant new investments over the past few years, including the new apprenticeship service, as well as the most recent budget 2022 announcement to double the union training and innovation program. As Andrew stated, we work very collaboratively with the PTs to implement these programs.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

I would just observe that the federal spending is not equalling results fast enough.

I'm going to turn it over to my colleague Mr. Bragdon for the remainder of the time.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a quick follow-up question on the carbon tax.

We know it's a signature piece of legislation in regard to tackling climate change, according to this government, but we do not have, to my understanding, any metric through which we are measuring how many megatonnes of carbon emissions have actually been reduced as a result of the carbon tax.

Is that correct, Mr. DeMarco—yes or no? I don't believe we have a metric, do we?

I also have a quick follow-up.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Given the delay in the timing of information on emissions, we don't have real-time data to share with you.

We have projections from the Parliamentary Budget Officer—

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

No, that's great. I understand. We don't have one.

We're in a cost-of-living crisis in this country, and it is affecting our producers, our businesses and our farmers. We're hearing this repeatedly. The input costs keep soaring. The cost of groceries keeps going up, and the cost of transportation. This is affecting the cost of living.

We do not have a metric through which we can yet measure whether any megatonnes of carbon have been removed from the environment as a result of the carbon tax. It's a punitive tax, ineffective overall, and I don't think Canadians are satisfied with what we've seen so far. The fact that we don't have a metric at this point to measure the reductions in carbon is quite substantive.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Bragdon.

I'm glad that was a statement and not a question, because you were out of time.

Turning to Ms. Shanahan, you have the floor for five minutes, s’il vous plaît.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I too thank the witnesses for being here.

As a gentle reminder—I've been on this committee a long time—this is a process committee, not a policy committee. We're here, and I am delighted that we are studying a report by the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development, because that was our objective early on. It was to give some lift and also to add the kind of analysis that a public accounts committee can add to the conversation.

We're not disputing whether or not we need to be fighting climate change. We are looking at the consequences and the programs that the government has to put in place, and whether we're being effective in putting those programs in place.

The just transition is indeed a very key part of that, so I would like to address my questions to Mr. Jones.

We heard a little bit from Mr. McGuire, but I'd like to hear from Mr. Jones, from Prairies Economic Development Canada.

Please speak to us about what you're seeing on the ground, the kind of consultations that are going on. Do you feel that the work that is being done now by NRCan and ESDC will be helpful to your department?

[Dylan Jones]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, this new regime where you have to think before you speak is a blessing.

I'm going to turn this question over to Justin Riemer. I think it's a question about what we're hearing on the ground, and he's been most connected to that.

I'll maybe just say, overall, that communities are really concerned and really seized of this, and very passionate about finding solutions, particularly solutions that don't involve their workers having to leave that community to go to another community to find work.

Justin, you may want to add to that.

[Justin Riemer, Assistant Deputy Minister, Alberta, Prairies Economic Development Canada]

Thanks, Dylan.

Yes, it is very true. There are concerned communities. We've been having consultations with them—the unions, the workers, the municipal leaders—in those affected communities in Alberta and Saskatchewan for a few years now, as we deliver our programs. We have been investing in projects to maintain jobs in those communities, train up workers, assist workers in transitioning to new sectors and new employment. We are starting to see some results from those investments.

We have invested in some infrastructure projects in those areas. In Alberta, it's anticipated that they will be fully off coal electric generation by next year, so the transition is under way. However, because the economy is fairly high growth in Alberta and the Prairies right now, there is a good degree of employment opportunity, but it may not be in the communities where the coal electricity has been generated.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Please tell the committee how an agency like yours helps workers. I think we're talking about very practical logistics, because the jobs that workers may be able to transition to are not in their community. Can you talk to us about the programs that may or may not exist to help workers? What would you then suggest?

[Justin Riemer]

We have a variety of programs. We have a coal transition program, where we're working with the community, based on municipal and community leadership, to invest in things such as worker training sites, industrial land development, feasibility studies for irrigation and other economic development opportunities the community has identified as priorities.

We also have an infrastructure fund that invests in infrastructure needs for an identified community that is affected by coal, in an effort to support investment attraction into that area, for instance, funding roads or other types of infrastructure that are going to address the infrastructure shortcomings of that area and appeal to investors to promote new industry development in those sectors.

We have a variety of, I think, micro-oriented economic development programs in communities to support economic growth in those regions and support the workers through entrepreneurship, business supports and other types of identified training needs.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

I'm afraid that is all your time.

I'm now turning from Ms. Shanahan to Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas.

You have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I'm going to address Mr. Commissioner.

Mr. DeMarco, I want to come back to the question asked earlier about the absence of a governance structure. I'm trying to get a clarification from you. Mr. Hannaford has told us that there's no issue in the department with respect to governance.

I'd like to know if there was really a lack of governance within the various departments.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Thank you for your question.

There was no governance structure during the audit period. You can ask Mr. Hannaford if that has been rectified since September 2021 when the audit was completed. Perhaps he was referring to the period after the audit period. You can ask him that.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. DeMarco, since we're here today to talk about the audit, that is what we're going to focus on.

I also want to go into more detail with you about the government's diligence in setting up an informal working group. Don't you think it's dilettantism? In other words, they set up an informal working group, make recommendations, and the government doesn't ensure that those recommendations are followed.

In the audit, you said no one was accountable. The working group's first recommendation proposed that the transition plan be sponsored by a responsible minister. However, no one is deciding on roles and making decisions. There is no one responsible for accountability within the department. I'd like you to talk about accountability and coordination of actions in this plan.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have 30 seconds left.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

We found a lot of gaps. There was no governance system, no just transition legislation or implementation plan. Since our recommendations were accepted, I think it will be implemented. However, during the audit period, we found many gaps. There was not much detail on this program during our audit period.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor now for two and a half minutes. This will be your last round.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to be very brief because I want to be able to share a few moments of my time—at least a minute and 15 seconds—with Mike.

I want to thank the witnesses.

Again, thank you for being present with us today on this really critical report.

I want to thank my friend Han from across the way for correcting me. I do at least agree that my statements have inspired discussion among this group, which I'm happy about. My Conservative colleagues as well got very excited to talk about climate change, which I never see. It's very exciting to see that we have agreement on some things.

I will yield the rest of my time to Mr. Morrice.

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Desjarlais, and thank you, Mr. Chair.

When the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives talks about a just transition, it talks about including “compensation, retraining and career support, job transfers and pension bridging for affected workers.” Similarly, the task force on just transition for Canadian coal power workers, in their recommendations—which this audit noted have not been completed—talks about protecting pensions and securing “income support, education and skills building, re-employment and mobility.”

My question is for Mr. Hannaford.

If you're in the midst of working on the legislation, can you confirm that these key items recommended by both a third party and a really critical task force will be part of the prosperous or just transition legislation?