Public Accounts Committee on June 16th, 2022

[Kelly Gillis]

Thank you for the question, Chair.

I think globally infrastructure.... I'm sorry. I'm getting echoes in my mike right now. I don't know if it's just me.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'll just do a quick pause here. I've stopped the clock, Mr. Dong.

Ms. Gillis, is that any better, or are you hearing the echo when you speak? Why don't you talk to me for a few seconds?

[Kelly Gillis]

I'm sorry about this. I was just hearing echoes for a second, but now I do not hear them. I think it is okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'll resume the clock. It's over to you, please.

[Kelly Gillis]

Thank you.

Infrastructure investments globally right now are very important as part of economic recovery, but also as we look at the standard of living of populations. The United States has put together quite an ambitious infrastructure plan. If we look at the U.K., Australia, we see that very important investments are also taking place. When we look at ourselves, we see that we have important investments taking place.

Other organizations.... We're looking at that as a national infrastructure assessment. In the consultation that we launched last year is an evidence base of looking at a long-term infrastructure plan going out to 2050. Other countries have taken similar types of initiatives like the U.K., Australia and New Zealand.

We always are comparing with how others are doing and the types of infrastructure investments that they're making. We're quite comparable within the types of infrastructure, like public transit, roads or bridges. From that perspective, I think we're very sophisticated and advanced in the types of infrastructure that we need as a society.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Going through the report, I see a lot of mention of a horizontal initiative tool.

Can you give a brief overview on the structure and the content of this tool?

[Kelly Gillis]

Thank you for the question.

The horizontal initiative tool is a template that Treasury Board Secretariat prescribes for horizontal initiatives such as this, where a number of departments are all contributing to certain outcomes. This particular tool, which is available on our website through our transparency, is populated and published twice a year—at the beginning of the year where we showcase what we expect to achieve, and at the end of the year, looking at the actual results against those achievements.

As part of the response to the Auditor General, we've worked with our partner departments to look at what was included in that particular report. We've included our legacy programs. The 24 legacy programs that the Auditor General mentioned are now included in that particular horizontal table. It also lists all 90 programs that are part of the plan and has performance indicators, targets and dates of completion.

As part of that response to the Auditor General, we've reviewed all of the indicators and ensured that there are targets for every particular program. As well, we've looked at the tool and made sure it's user friendly and not hard to find information. Because there was a lot of information in a certain way, we segmented it into eight different sections. You can easily find information, like the report I talked about with Mr. Scheer on the flow of funds. There's an expected outcomes table. You can search for the information easily and find what we expect to achieve on the plan in a particular year, as well as some of the cumulative information.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

I know the plan includes working with provincial, territorial and municipal governments as well as indigenous communities. What role does this tool that you just described have in streamlining communications among these partners?

[Kelly Gillis]

This particular horizontal table provides in one place an overview of all of the 21 departments' 90 programs and the indicators for each of the programs. It also provides links directly to the departments and more information regarding those particular programs.

If you look at the relationships with provinces and territories, that depends on the particular program. If it's allocation-based, such as.... We have a particular program—the $33-billion program I talked about with Mr. Scheer—that has bilateral agreements with each province and territory. That is working with the provinces and territories to deliver infrastructure investments and make a difference within those jurisdictions. Those are important relationships and partnerships to be able to cost-share the investments and prioritize what types of infrastructure projects would move forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. I'm afraid you gobbled up Mr. Scheer's extra few seconds there.

I now give the floor to Mr. Therrien for six minutes.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to greet the witnesses who came to do us the honour of sharing their thoughts with us.

I would also like to greet my colleagues, whom I do not see very often.

I'm very happy to be with all of you today.

Mr. Chair, I would begin my remarks with the tabling of two motions. I will read the motions and then, if I may, I will explain very briefly why I consider that they should be tabled and endorsed by the committee, so that they can take effect as soon as possible.

I will read the motions slowly, to give the interpreters a chance to do their job. We're very fond of our interpreters; we need to take care of them.

Here is the first motion:

That the committee mandates—

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

I'm sorry. I'm a little confused here. Are we still in the rounds of questions, or are we...?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

We are. This is Mr. Therrien's first opportunity to table the motion, so it doesn't disrupt the committee business.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Out of respect for the witnesses, can you explain to them what's happening right now?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Sure. I'll be very quick, because I want to get through this quickly.

One of the opposition members is now tabling two motions. He's going to be given time to read these motions and speak to them briefly. They will not be debated or considered today. He is merely presenting them.

Thank you.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have the floor, Mr. Therrien.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

I will begin reading the first motion again:

That the committee mandates the Chair to send a letter to the Auditor General of Canada strongly recommending she investigate the expenses and costs incurred by the Governor General of Canada, from public funds, in her capacity as Canada's representative at home and abroad since her appointment on July 6, 2021.

That is the first motion.

If I may, Mr. Chair, I will table the second one and then I will give my reasons for tabling these two motions.

Here is the second motion:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee undertakes a study of the expenditure of nearly $100,000 in public funds by the Governor General of Canada for catering services during an eight-day tour of the Middle East in March 2022; and that the committee invites the Governor General to appear before the committee for a period of two (2) hours on or before June 23, 2022.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

You can present your motions, but you can't debate them right away unless you get unanimous consent. Usually there is a 48-hour time limit.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

So you are telling me that I cannot briefly explain the motions. Yet I can do whatever I want with my six minutes. Can I not comment on my motions? It seems to me that this is the rule.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I am told he can use his time to speak to this. However, this is not a debate. He can only ask for unanimous consent to continue debate.

You have the floor, Mr. Therrien.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, the facts were made public thanks to the question on the order paper asked by the Conservative member for Leeds-Grenville-Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, who wanted to know the details of the use of the Airbus CC‑150 Polaris aircraft since December 1, 2021.

We received the documents on June 13 and discovered, quite astoundingly, that Governor General Mary Simon had spent $93,117.89 in nine days during her trip to the Middle East. In fact, almost $100,000 was spent on catering for 30 people, including the Governor General, on a plane. That is incredible.

It raises a lot of questions. Where did this astronomical amount come from? Who are the Governor General's 29 guests? We know that when the Governor General goes abroad, it is not to do extremely intensive work; rather, she is making an appearance. We want to know who made the decision about these expenses. Also, the Governor General said that it was not her, but the Department of National Defence that picked up the tab so that she could have access to this catering, whose cost was astronomical. Personally, I would love to hear from our Governor General why she has no say in the expenses she incurs.

In fact, whether the funds come from the Department of National Defence budget or the Governor General's budget, it is the taxpayers of Quebec and Canada who have to foot the bill. These people work very hard and pay astronomical amounts for the public service. Therefore, I think we should be respectful of them and ask the Governor General for an explanation. We need to make sure that she sheds light on the situation.

In the media, people have started to compare her trip with the Prime Minister's trip to Europe, and we see that the costs incurred by the Governor General are three to four times higher than those incurred by the Prime Minister on his trip. I do not know if you find this normal, but I, for one, find it problematic.

Of course, there is also the amount of money spent on gas for the plane, $248,000.

I would also like to know exactly why it was essential that she represent Canada with 29 other people. This is a question that can be asked.

I would like to tell you that the Minister of Canadian Heritage himself told reporters that the Governor General would have to explain these unrealistic expenses. I am echoing his words, Mr. Chair.

This is a scandalous situation, and I'm choosing my words carefully.

May I ask that the committee hold a debate on this?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Is there unanimous consent that we debate this motion now?

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.