Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 25th, 2022

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Don't you have, though, a central database to keep track of the new applications that come in after you visit a particular region or community?

[Lori MacDonald]

Yes, for sure we do. We don't track them by individuals, but I will give you an example.

In 2021-22, we did 5,605 engagements with community partners working with the vulnerable populations. We went to 579 indigenous communities. We served them through virtual activities and outreach support centres. That resulted in over 30,000 services being provided.

Now, we don't identify exactly what that service is—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I appreciate that. I'm going to have to end the questioning there.

Our last member is Mr. Fragiskatos.

You have the floor for five minutes. I don't know if you want to continue this. These numbers sounded interesting, but it is your time.

It's over to you.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

The question I want to put is to ESDC, on the reaching all Canadians initiative. What insights have been gained there that could help our understanding of the factors that contribute to hard-to-reach populations having such a difficult time getting access to key benefits and other supports? Are there lessons you can share with us specifically from that initiative?

Again, that goes to ESDC.

[Lori MacDonald]

Yes, for sure.

One of the things we've struggled with, as I said previously, is that because they're an unknown population, they don't respond to what we traditionally do as government, whether that's mail-outs, phone calls out, a stagnant Service Canada centre or government department. We have to rethink how we connect with them.

The example I would give you is from during the pandemic. When they were trying to give people vaccinations, one of the things they discovered, particularly in urban centres, was that a number of people were shut-in. A number of people over the age of 65 were not coming out and were not in care. We went to third party organizations and people working directly with seniors to get them to access those people who were shut-in. As a result, we were able to put people on GIS and OAS and back-pay them with money.

That lesson learned is that we can't do things in very traditional government ways. We need to access the services that are already on the ground doing a lot of this work and that know those people.

We obviously have other lessons learned, as well, in terms of building relationships with communities, such as not going into a community and dropping off papers. We have to build those relationships, and then connect with the individuals in those communities and support groups so that we can go back. We did that with CRA. We helped people fill out their short-form tax forms, so that we could get people on child care benefits. Another lesson learned is to help them fill out the forms. It's not enough.... They're complicated forms, so we help them fill out the forms.

Finally, I would say that we had to change the literacy on our websites. We were putting our pages at a university one level. We've reduced it now, so that on average, as it is benchmarked in a number of other countries, it's at grade eight.

Those kinds of things, like lessons learned in understanding pain points in the communities and with these individuals, help us think about how we get them the services they are qualified for.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Ms. MacDonald.

My final question goes to Commissioner Hamilton.

Commissioner, in the introductory remarks you made to the committee today, you made reference to a detailed action plan that you have submitted to the committee. I think it's worth asking you specifically, because you talked about key points there that would help to bring to life the recommendations that were put forward by the Auditor General's office and that the CRA has agreed to.

Could you point to which key points those would be?

[Bob Hamilton]

Certainly, Mr. Chair. I'm happy to respond to that.

When I look at our action plan, the first recommendation is that we should establish a joint effort and be more coordinated with ESDC and Stats Canada to find ways to better report on what we're doing and improve the measures. We've talked about that extensively during this meeting.

We detailed a timeline that would see us form the governance for the ongoing participation of the three agencies. That has been done. We're going to keep working on that to look at better ways to update our data and to use different tools to try to get at the data we really need, but work together as three departments and agencies on that.

The other thing we've talked about, which is another recommendation, is how we get a better sense of what the results are, and better measures and better performance indicators. What are we striving to achieve, and can we measure that better than we are now, given some of the constraints that we've talked about in terms of privacy and confidentiality? We're working together on that to see what we can do together to come up with better key performance indicators that will be meaningful.

I would agree with what Lori said. When we do the outreach into communities, it may not be a one-to-one efficiency. We go in, we build trust, we get relationships and then the benefits start to come. Sometimes it takes a bit of time and effort to build that, because you can have some resistance in those communities.

We know there are benefits. How do we do a better job together of constructing good measures that tell us what we want to achieve and what success looks like, and then report on that?

The final thing is how we do a better job of presenting a seamless experience for vulnerable, hard-to-reach people. There are many benefits out there. We have some from ESDC, some from us, some from other departments and some from provincial governments, and we need to try to find a way to make that all make better sense to the people who are applying for them and who are eligible for them. I think that's the other key part of our action plan, that we put—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. I'm afraid the time is all out. We went a little over there, but I wanted to hear the full answer to that.

I want to thank all our witnesses for appearing today, both virtually and in person. It's good to see you. I know the auditor and her team will be back here very soon.

To our witnesses online, thank you for sharing your time with us today. We all appreciate it. We look forward to seeing you at some point down the road as well.

I'm going to keep the committee members here for a few minutes just for some announcements, but everyone else is excused. I'm going to suspend for 30 or 40 seconds, so if members could hold their seats, I will have them out of here by the half hour. Thank you.

We will resume.

Committee members, very briefly, I had to make a change to the calendar. This is hydrogen, which I know is Mr. Dong's priority, and it will remain that, but unfortunately the deputy ministers were not available and the analysts recommended that we defer until they are. They're actually off to the COP meeting, so they have a reasonable excuse to not be available. In place, for next Friday, November 4, I've scheduled in systemic barriers in the Correctional Service of Canada.

Mr. Desjarlais might wonder why not the marine study, and that is because I have a similar challenge with the environment commissioner not being here for that either, because he's off to COP. I'm aware of priorities that I hear from members.

That's a change. We're going to try to get the hydrogen potential scheduled for November 18. I wanted to bring that to your attention.

As well, I'm in the process of coordinating our meeting with Ms. Hogan, and I think I'm going to aim for a Monday evening outside committee hours, but I'll be in touch with you. Wednesdays here are difficult because of caucus. Thursdays people tend to travel, and even Tuesdays, so my preference is a Monday evening meeting with her, but I will coordinate with you.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I have a three-hour meeting. Is there another time?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

What time is your meeting?

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

It's 6:30 to 9:30.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Okay. I'll send an email out to everyone and I'll get some times sent. Thank you.

If there are no other issues, I will end the meeting. I just wanted to bring that up. We will have time. We will be discussing committee business again very soon.

I declare the meeting adjourned.