Evidence of meeting #36 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funding.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Karen Hogan  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
Andrew Hayes  Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
Stephen Diotte  Executive Director, Employment Relations and Total Compensation, Strategic Compensation Management, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Nicholas Leswick  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Cédric Taquet

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 36 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Pursuant to the motion adopted by the committee on October 21, 2022, the committee is meeting today for a briefing on the Office of the Auditor General.

I'm going to jump to our witnesses.

From the Office of the Auditor General, we have Karen Hogan, Auditor General of Canada, and Deputy Auditor General Andrew Hayes. It's good to see both of you here in person.

From the Department of Finance, we have Associate Deputy Minister Nicholas Leswick. It's good to see you again.

From the Treasury Board Secretariat by video conference, we have Stephen Diotte, executive director, employment relations and total compensation, strategic compensation management, office of the chief human resources officer.

Only the Auditor General has opening remarks. I will check back with the other two witnesses just to see if they want to respond to anything once the AG has finished up.

Ms. Hogan, the floor is yours for five minutes, please.

November 1st, 2022 / 3:30 p.m.

Karen Hogan Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Mr. Chair, thank you for this opportunity to update the committee on the funding of the Office of the Auditor General of Canada and the effects of the recent strike.

I would like to acknowledge that this hearing is taking place on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

In March 2021, our office received $25 million of additional permanent funding. With this new funding, we hired additional staff and now employ almost 800 persons. We also increased the number of performance audits we produce in a year, from an average of 14 before receiving an increase in our funding to more than 20 in the 2022-23 fiscal year. We expect to be able to deliver even more audit work in the years to come.

Our current budget is enough for our office to operate at its present and planned levels; however, when new mandates are added without additional funding, it can eventually result in the situation our office experienced in the past, which contributed to the significant funding shortfall.

For example, since receiving additional funding, the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development has been given the responsibility to report regularly under the Canadian Net-Zero Emissions Accountability Act. We also had new audit work to do for the Canada Enterprise Emergency Funding Corporation and the allocation of proceeds of Canada's green bonds for the Department of Finance Canada. This is important work for us to do. In the future, we would ask that our funding be considered when new work is added.

In our view, it is important that a long-term, stable funding mechanism be established to preserve our independence and our capacity to respond to an evolving environment. There are examples in other jurisdictions that may be helpful to explore with the view of ensuring predictable funding for our office, given our role in supporting Parliament as it holds the government to account. It is problematic for us to have to request money from the Department of Finance Canada and the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat, which are organizations we audit. In our view, a funding mechanism that includes parliamentary oversight would be preferable.

Turning now to the recent labour dispute, which included a six-week general strike by about 165 of our employees in the Audit Services Group.

As the committee may know, the President of the Treasury Board gives our office its mandate for collective bargaining. This mandate establishes the maximum amount of pay and specifies the other terms and conditions of employment that may be offered by our office during collective bargaining. At times, the mandate includes how our office is to approach negotiations.

It is also important to note that the additional permanent funding we received in March 2021 could not be used to expand the collective bargaining mandate. In other words, we cannot use our annual budget as a source of funds for a collective agreement.

The strike had far-reaching effects. Internally, there was a significant effect on the mental health and wellness of all our employees. In addition, we have experienced an unusually high rate of departure in the Audit Services Group. While we have since hired new employees and continue our efforts to attract and recruit, this remains a challenge in the current environment, with the lingering effects of the labour conflict.

In addition to the effects on our staff, the response to the labour dispute resulted in delays in some of our audit work and operations. For example, we delayed the release of our spring 2022 reports. In addition, we temporarily slowed some large corporate initiatives, including our transformation. Our ability to spend our budget in the 2021–22 and 2022–23 fiscal years was also affected.

The effects of the strike on our people, culture, and working environment will be felt for some time. Moving forward, we will pursue our efforts and conversations with employees across our office to identify actions to renew the workplace and foster a healthy, safe, inclusive, and productive environment.

Mr. Chair, this concludes my opening remarks. We would be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.

Thank you.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you very much, Ms. Hogan.

I'm going to check because I said I would: I don't expect that there are any comments from Mr. Leswick.

Mr. Diotte, I expect you probably don't have comments, but I said I'd check. That's perfectly reasonable, and you are under no obligation. You'd indicated there would not be an opening statement.

I'm going to turn to our first round, which gives each of the first four members six minutes.

Mr. McCauley, you have the floor for six minutes, please.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

AG Hogan, welcome back. Mr. Hayes, welcome back. Long time, no see; I think it's been just a couple of days.

This seems like the movie The NeverEnding Story. How long has your office been requesting additional resources?

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

The initial request that my predecessor, Michael Ferguson, made was back in 2017. He received a portion of the funding he had requested in 2018, and then we repeated our requests every year thereafter until we received funding. I put in a request for $25 million and we received all of that in 2021.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

What would have happened if you hadn't received that extra funding?

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

Well, we would have continued to function at the level we were.

At that time, we were providing approximately 14 performance audits to Parliament in addition to the 90 financial audits that we do, as well as three to five special exams in a year. We would have only been able to maintain that level.

As I mentioned in my opening remarks, some additional work was given to us. For example, the commissioner of the environment received additional work and an additional financial mandate was added. That would have had to come from existing capacity if we had not received funding.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

That was going to be my next question: How much did this added work and the added directives affect your work schedule?

I want to follow up. Every year you go, cap in hand, for more money and eventually it is delivered. How does it affect your short-term and long-term planning knowing that this money is not guaranteed and that you have to go every year for this extra funding to fulfill your mandate?

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

I should inform you that I did not request any additional funding after that $25 million was received. As I mentioned, I believe that this funding is good for our current needs. We went every year from 2017 until we received it in 2021, yes.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Okay.

Up until 2021, did knowing they could say no affect your long-term or short-term planning,?

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

Absolutely, it affected our planning, in that whenever we had additional work that was legislated to us, we had to reduce work that was discretionary. The discretionary work is our performance audit work, which is the main work that parliamentary committees study. It has an impact on our ability to deliver to Parliament and help Parliament fulfill its role in holding the government to account.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

How should the funding model be done? Should it be similar to the model for, say, the Parliamentary Budget Officer or the Ethics Commissioner, so that basically you would request money from the House or from the Speaker as opposed to going through TBS and Finance?

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

There are a few models out there. I think it's important to note that not every agent of Parliament is the same, so the same funding mechanism should not necessarily be used across the board for all agents of Parliament. There are examples in the provinces or internationally that we could look to.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

If you had your way with us, how would it be done?

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

If I had my way.... Where should I start with a wish list?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

For the funding, ideally...?

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

For the funding mechanism, I do believe there is a role for central agencies and that they still need to be involved because they do set the budgeting of expenditures in the government, but I do believe that Parliament should also have a role in order to help support the independence of not only our office but any agent of Parliament.

I believe that this committee, in the case of our office, could play that role, or another committee could be set up that could oversee all agents of Parliament. There are many options to explore, and I'd be really happy to do that with any working group that would like to do so.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

You've touched upon this point in your opening statement, and I've often heard it described as a conflict of interest: requiring the Auditor General to request money from the people they will possibly be auditing. Is that a correct summation of the issue?

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

It's difficult, for sure, if we issue an opinion or complete an audit that doesn't have positive results on one of the central agencies. It does potentially impact our independence, absolutely. I think it's more of a perception of an issue with independence. That's why it would be preferable to have a mechanism whereby we can ensure that independence, and the perception of it, is maintained.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

I think that's very important, and I don't think anyone is suggesting—at least around this table—that the Department of Finance or TBS would act in that manner, but the perception of independence, I think, is very important for the Auditor General's office.

Is it that we could eliminate that perception of a conflict if we change the funding mechanism?

3:45 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

Going through my schooling and working as a CPA over the years, we were always taught that independence is the cornerstone of our profession, but that the perception or lack thereof is almost worse than the reality, so I believe that any time we can fix that and ensure that not only the perception but the reality of independence is there, we should take that step if possible.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

I think especially Angus Reid and some other polling companies have released rather dismal results on people's trust in government, and in all levels of government across the country it has been dropping significantly. I think this is part and parcel of it.

Again, I suggest agreement from you that changing the funding model to be straightforward and independent of the finance department would strengthen the role of the Auditor General and your office.

3:45 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

I think that every Canadian should be able to have confidence in the independence and the objectivity of the Auditor General, whether it be provincial, municipal or federal, and any time we can encourage independence—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you very much.

When you're asked the time, 30 is the answer time too, Mr. McCauley. It's not just the question time.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Maybe we can go to the finance department and ask for more time.