Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 1st, 2022

[Karen Hogan]

Whether or not we believe we need more funding is something we initiate, but the decision as to whether we receive that funding is subject to the same process and mechanism that every department in the federal public service is—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

It's decided by the government, essentially. The people you're auditing get to decide whether you have the resources you think you need in order to audit them effectively.

[Karen Hogan]

There are central agencies that play a role, but in the end it goes to Parliament, which votes on it. Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. That is your time.

Mrs. Shanahan, you have the floor for five minutes. It's over to you.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Again, I thank the witnesses for appearing here today on these important questions.

I would like to have a better understanding of the mandate for collective bargaining. The Auditor General mentioned her office needs to work within a mandate.

I'll address my question to Mr. Diotte of the Treasury Board.

How does that work? Does Treasury Board work together with the PCO to provide a mandate for collective bargaining? Is this specific to the Office of the Auditor General, or is this the case for every separate agency?

[Stephen Diotte]

With respect, I think this question would be best answered by my colleague from the finance department.

[Nicholas Leswick, Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Finance]

Thank you for the question—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Order.

Mr. Leswick, you have the floor. That question was directed to you. You have the floor. Thank you.

[Nicholas Leswick]

Thank you. I thought I'd said something wrong.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

No.

[Nicholas Leswick]

To cut to it, yes, the mandate is approved by the government. The President of the Treasury Board submits a recommendation to the Minister of Finance in terms of the path of the wage. When I say “wage”, I mean salary and non-salary adjustments. The Minister of Finance and Prime Minister set the overall macro pattern for the wage envelope, which is then transmitted back to the President of the Treasury Board to transact the collective bargaining process.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Very good.

Following the line of my colleague—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm sorry, Mrs. Shanahan. Could you hold for one second? I'm getting pulled in different directions here.

Oh, my mike was on. Pardon me.

It's over to you.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Do I have the floor?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I paused the clock. Pardon me, but my mike was on and I didn't know that was the case. I'm sorry.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you.

I am trying to understand—as my colleague Mr. Dong was asking about—the effect of one part of the public service getting a major impact.

I fully understand that it's very specialized work in the audit department and that we need the best and brightest there. However, does some kind of balance not need to happen in the collective bargaining? How does that affect the government's credibility and show they're negotiating in good faith? Can we have this kind of imbalance?

I'll send that over to you, Mr. Diotte.

[Stephen Diotte]

Thank you very much.

I think what needs to be clarified here is that the roles covered by the bargaining unit at the OAG are very similar to roles right across the public service. While they do have some occupations that are unique, those unique occupations are not in the bargaining unit.

After we signed 99% of the public service to the same terms and conditions of employment, the risk of breaching that mandate would be that it would create financial pressure across the public service.

As I said earlier, we've unfortunately had a number of decisions of late in which third parties, like arbitrators and public interest commissioners, don't recognize the distinction of separate agencies. They view separate agencies and the core public administration as having one employer, the Government of Canada.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Directly or indirectly, there could be unfairness in the outcomes of different results.

If you're saying that these skill sets are needed across the civil service, is it important for federal organizations to have similar salary bands, so that one part of the federal service can't hog the best and brightest of workers?

[Stephen Diotte]

That's exactly correct.

There is already a lot of movement across the public service, and if we start creating imbalances, what ends up happening is that the unions whipsaw one group against the other and keep ratcheting up wages, with the expected financial consequences.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I have one last question. I don't know if you'll be able to answer it or if it should go to the Auditor General.

Under the collective bargaining mandates provided by the Treasury Board, how many other agencies had strikes during the year when the strike began?

[Stephen Diotte]

There was only one, to the best of my recollection.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Where was that?

[Stephen Diotte]

It was at the Communications Security Establishment. It also lasted for about six weeks.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I apologize for interrupting you, Ms. Shanahan, but I did not take it away from your time. I made sure it was accurate.

There was a question asked, and I have an answer. The analysts were able to find some information on the annual results reported from the Office of the Auditor General in terms of staff levels.

In the 2005-06 fiscal year, the office had 577 full-time equivalent employees, and more recently, in the 2014-15 fiscal year, the office had 547 full-time equivalent employees.

I believe that question was asked by Mr. Dong. That's the answer for you. We have those numbers.

Turning now to the next round, I'm recognizing Mr. Genuis, but I think you're going to....