Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2022

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Go ahead.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I'm not saying the question is unimportant. I just wonder whether it directly relates to the public accounts—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Chair, as I indicated in my opening—

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

We're taking up the public accounts—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

—it's specifically relevant due to the lack of funding provided, which is leaving our systems in the cloud vulnerable, so I think it's very relevant.

I'm not sure if the member would like to read Report 7 of the Auditor General.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mrs. Kusie, I have it.

Mr. Fragiskatos, I try to be lenient with members about their questions. The auditor is showing no push-back in answering, so I am inclined to let Mrs. Kusie continue with this line. It was initially related to the public accounts. I realize she has taken some latitude, but this is a friendly witness here, and I am inclined to let it go.

Mrs. Kusie, you have another 53 seconds, so please go ahead.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Yes, thank you very much, Chair.

Pardon me, Ms. Hogan. I'll continue with my question.

Do you think, then, that the lack of coordination among key government departments is making government information and the personal information of Canadians stored on the cloud vulnerable to a cybersecurity incident?

[Karen Hogan]

Mr. Chair, I am always pleased to answer any questions members have. I leave it up to you to decide whether they are the questions that should be raised.

I think it would be wrong to say that the cloud is any riskier than being on a server. Information stored digitally, whether it is stored on a server in a Government of Canada building or accessed through the cloud and stored on a server in another location, is at risk of being compromised. It's about having the right set of controls that are consistently monitored over all of that.

I just think that's an important aspect to bear in mind. The government has good base controls. What we told them is that they need to strengthen them.

I will leave it be because I see your time is up.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. That's good, yes, and I'm sure she will be coming back to this in another study.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

I appreciate it. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Turning now to Mr. Dong, could you say a few words to me before I start? I just want to make sure your microphone is working well before we turn over the floor. Just tell me how your event is going for tonight?

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Absolutely, Chair.

I think my mike is good. It's the House-issued microphone headset.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

All right. Why don't you go ahead? You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Great. Thanks a lot.

I want to turn to the finance folks first.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Dong, could you just bring the microphone down a little bit? It is a little bit hard to hear you.

That's better, I think.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

To the folks from Finance, Deputy Minister, what's our debt-to-GDP ratio right now?

[Michael Sabia]

I'll give you two numbers there.

For 2021-22, it's 45% federal debt-to-GDP ratio.

Then we project that figure over the period of the fiscal framework over the next five or six years. There are some variations in the economic statement that we published because, as you know, we publish both a base case and a downside case, and the debt-to-GDP percentage changes depending upon what case we're in.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Actually, that's a responsible way to do it, because there are a lot of variables going forward.

What is the federal government portion of that debt?

[Michael Sabia]

The federal government—

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

What's the subnational? Is the subnational debt also included in the 45%?

[Michael Sabia]

No. That's a different set of calculations. The numbers that we publish are for the federal government and the federal government only, and then there's another set of calculations undertaken by international institutions such as the OECD or the IMF. They make a number of adjustments. They include subnational governments. They make a number of other adjustments to try to achieve comparability between or among countries. That's not an easy thing to do.

One of the important changes that happens as subnational governments come in and these international comparisons get made is that assets such as large pension funds—the Canada pension fund, for instance—come into the calculation as an offset on the debt. There's a whole series of other calculations or adjustments that are made to ensure that international comparability.

You can't just take the 45% that we calculate for the federal government and then just add in the provinces. It's done on a very different basis.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Right. I also noticed that there is—I forget the terminology—a 31% number following the 45%. Can you explain what that 31% is?

[Michael Sabia]

Yes, that's a number that's used for international comparison purposes.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Then it accounts for all the pension assets and subnational...okay.

[Michael Sabia]

Yes.