Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 8th, 2022

[Marc-André Viau]

Thank you for the question.

Yes, I am surprised because this is a climate crisis situation that has been acknowledged. At the same time, I am not surprised, in the sense that it is difficult to break out of our dependency. That requires efforts from all departments, including the Department of Natural Resources, the Department of the Environment and the Department of Finance, as the commissioners said. The commissioner actually talks a lot in his report about collaboration within government, among various departments, and about collaboration with provinces and municipalities. We are seeing a major lack of collaboration. Will is also needed to manage to eliminate fossil fuel subsidies in 2023.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

I'm sorry, we'll have to move on.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Viau.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you.

We'll move on to Mr. Desjarlais, for six minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses who are present with us today, particularly the Commissioner. Thank you very much, and welcome to your very first testimony at the public accounts committee.

I had the opportunity to look at the report. I want to ask questions related to three portions of it: lessons 2, 7 and 8. To begin my questioning, I'd like to begin with lesson 2.

In this report, it suggests that our high reliance on, and abundance of, natural resources poses an interesting kind of irony and problem for Canada. We have this tremendous resource capability, like we do in my home province of Alberta. Through that, we've been able to invest in our economy and infrastructure. On page 15, you can see that the sector, to date, still employs a huge number of people—some 422,000 people in 2019 and, and particularly important to me, 10,000 indigenous people.

How can the federal government identify, and assist communities and workers most affected by the transition to a low-carbon economy? By identifying these workers, what kind of assistance will be required to ensure we can have a good transition to protect workers at the forefront, Mr. Commissioner.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

I'll focus my answer on the concept of a just transition.

This committee focuses quite frequently on financial and other matters. On financial matters, we want to see how the numbers add up for the year's budget and also look at not just the deficit for the year but the total debt moving forward, or accumulated surplus.

We need to look at the climate in the same way. Greenhouse gases cannot continue to put us in an environmental debt not only for the present generation, but also future generations. We have to have that carbon budgeting approach to greenhouse gases like we do with monetary and fiscal issues.

The just transition is critical. We can't use a Darwinian approach to a just transition. It wouldn't be a just transition if we left communities behind. As we pointed out in our report, there are many communities and entire regions of the country that rely on fossil fuel exploration, development, processing, production, and so on. There needs to be a viable plan.

I believe that the current government is committed to that. We're actually doing an audit on the early days of the just transition for coal workers as a bit of a microcosm for what will need to do in other just transitions in the other fuel bases. I would say that no one should be left behind. The Government of Canada has a critical role, working with the provinces, territories, municipalities and indigenous communities, to make sure that no one is left behind as we go along on this important transition.

The transition is important, because if we don't do that, we'll have a different transition to a hotter climate, which is even more difficult to adapt to. We're going to be transitioning one way or the other. We're going to do it in a diligent way, and have a just transition to a net-zero world, or we're going to keep muddling through and have a much hotter world that will have increasing levels of disaster that we'll have to adapt to.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much for that, Mr. Commissioner.

I want to discuss how that relates to lesson 7, in particular the collaborations among actors to find solutions.

I know, from my work, that there are tremendous numbers of partners across Canada, particularly workers and workers' unions, who want to participate in this plan. They want to feel encouraged in the development of Canada's energy future and to be participating in Canada's future mix. However, they feel excluded and are not part of this discussion with the government. They feel today as though they're still excluded from these discussions. I worked with indigenous partners for a very long time in my previous life. This is the reality facing them, as well.

How can the government actually ensure that it's hearing the voices of people who are impacted by this the most? To date, the people I've worked with have not.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

It's absolutely essential to involve all actors, what we call in our report a whole-of-society approach.

As Commissioner, I report on the performance of the federal government, so the focus is there. The solutions are not entirely there. As you mentioned, the solutions are dispersed across all levels of government, communities and people. They are dispersed across the world, too, given that it's a global issue.

Canada can make inroads in that. One of them, and I used an example already today, is having a body like this that was focused on other matter previously, with the environment set aside as a niche area for others to be concerned about. I'm very happy to see this committee expand its ambit of concern to look at climate. Government departments, especially central agencies, and the Department of Finance, for example, need to not only expand their ambit of concern to these important environmental and sustainable development issues, but also expand the ambit of input from the communities you spoke about.

This is absolutely crucial, especially at the local level, for climate adaptation. The communities are the ones that experience it. They should have a strong say in how we address it.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

If I have enough time, Madam Chair, I'd ask one quick question related to the participation of youth and, of course the intergenerational equity piece.

With what kind of tool would you recommend to ensure that young people understand this problem and how this generation in particular is disproportionately being affected? I really enjoyed your framework, just mentioning the idea of debt, this carbon debt.

Can you explain or expand on that as a tool for young people?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

I'm not sure that young people need to understand it better. It might be our generation that needs to understand it better. My experience with young people is that they're ahead of us on a lot of these issues, so I think we can learn from them in the spirit of your previous question. I think they, along with local communities and others, are important sources of input. It's their future at stake. We're supposed be holding this planet and this country in trust for future generations, but for the last 30 years we've breached that trust.

I would say that youth have an important role. They themselves are self-organizing, and I wouldn't want to be too prescriptive about how they participate and how they learn about climate change, because I think there's no shortage of initiative on their own part to do that. It's whether our generation will listen.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you very much.

We now have to move on to our second round of questions. We will have five minutes, starting with Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'm going to direct my questions to Mr. DeMarco.

Mr. DeMarco, I have questions arising from page 25 of your report on international climate finance. You note that the government had provided $2.65 billion between 2016 and 2021 to help the developing world fight climate change and develop adaptive infrastructure. Since then the government has committed a further $5.3 billion over the next five years. This amounts to a total of $7.95 billion that Canada has contributed or will be contributing in total to the UN goal of mobilizing $100 billion per year for this purpose. Your report included no breakdown of where that money will go or how it will be spent.

Do you have a breakdown of where the money, the $2.65 billion, has gone to date?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

It's an area that interests our office greatly in looking at the relationship between environmental and financial matters, as we've been talking about today.

We've highlighted this issue in the report and it's actually one that we're contemplating conducting a full audit of. I can't tell you what value for money they've received from those expenditures to date, but it is something that we're looking at closely and it may be something that we select as an audit for the coming year in making sure that Canadians are getting value for money from investments like that. This is similar to how we looked at the emissions reduction fund in November in assessing whether Canadians are getting value for money from these large expenditures that are intended to help with climate change, and whether these are in fact helping.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

It is a very sizable amount of money, and just to be clear, at this point you are not in a position to comment on where the dollars have been allocated, what investments have been made and so on.

Is that right?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

We've done preliminary research and are contemplating doing a full audit of this area, but we have not done one.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you for that.

We have seen a government that talks a lot, but as you note, they have missed every single target. You made reference to the carbon tax as relatively new. It's been in place for six years. I don't know that I would characterize that as relatively new. As your report notes, Canada is performing the worst of any G7 country relative to its Paris commitments.

Since 2005, we have seen a 1.1% reduction in GHGs. That's notwithstanding the fact the government committed, pursuant to the Paris Agreement, to a 30% reduction, and now the Prime Minister has upped the ante to a 45% reduction.

How possibly can Canadians have any confidence that a government that has presided over an increase rather than a decrease in GHGs and has blown through every single target can meet that ambitious target whereby we would have to see emission reductions of 50 times what has been achieved over the last 14 years of just 1.1%?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Thank you.

Yes, it's a crucial issue, and lesson 6 is all about that. It's nice to have plans and targets, but if you don't act on them, then what are Canadians getting for all of this effort? The story from 1990 to 2019—which is the full time span for which we have data—has been about a 20% increase in emissions over successive governments, from the first commitment in the green plan to Rio, all the way to the present, so there have been a series of failures followed by failures and other failures. I would say that when the Greenhouse Gas Pollution Pricing Act was passed in 2018, it signalled a new approach. I would say it's too early to say, at the current level of the carbon levy, what percentage of the reductions will come from that vis-à-vis the other many programs—there are about 64 programs in Canada right now at the federal level. What I am looking forward to seeing is how the carbon price and other measures will add up in the new plan that is expected to be tabled next month under the net-zero act. We'll have to look at that new plan from Canada to see whether it adds up with the carbon price and all of the other measures to reach the new target you mentioned as well as to get us on the path to net zero for 2050.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

How much time do I have left, Madam Chair?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Mr. Cooper, your time is up.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

We're moving to Ms. Bradford for five minutes.

Thank you.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to thank our professional witnesses for joining us today and for providing their expert testimony.

Following on the previous line of questioning, I'd like to point out that I think the report clearly identifies that all governments wear this and that you can't talk about just the present. The report also addresses the fact that many of the initiatives that we've put in place do not lead to instant results we'll be able to notice right away. It does take time to build on these things.

I feel that we all have to work together and engage the public, so my line of questioning will look at how we can enhance transparency and improve communication with the public and all sectors of society. Public support of initiatives to mitigate the effects of climate change and reach our climate commitments would be greatly improved by enhancing transparency about our progress towards meeting our commitments and the policy measures that we plan to put in place in the future.

Along that line, I am wondering if you could—and I'll address this to the commissioner—tell us how the federal government could strengthen Canadians' awareness of the climate crisis and the measures to address it. I know in some parties there's some discrepancy as to whether or not this is in fact a real crisis. I know it's certainly not the government's stance, but how can we improve that so we can get the buy-in of all Canadians? It's going to take all of us working together to tackle this problem.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Yes, that's an important lesson in our report: The need to continue the job of increasing public awareness of the issue. Certainly, it is much improved from what it was when I first became exposed to this issue in the early 1990s and when I attended the Rio convention in 1992, at which the UNFCCC was signed. The average Canadian now understands the problems with climate change. Unfortunately, it's taken years of inaction at the Canadian and global levels to reach the point where we're seeing the tangible effects in terms of extreme weather and more frequent extreme weather. I think the public awareness is getting there, though there's more work to be done.

In terms of accountability and transparency, which was part of your question, Canada needs to do a better job in not only coming up with plans but also disclosing the basis, assumptions and modelling for them, which is something on which Canada lags behind other countries like the U.K. in terms of transparency in the modelling. We've had plans over the years that, on paper, have appeared to add up but that, in practice, haven't even come close to adding up in terms of the reduction, so I think we have to be more transparent about the assumptions and also factor in when we go off script and put in programs that undermine our climate change efforts, which has happened as well.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

What are the knowledge gaps and sources of misinformation on the topic? How can they be best addressed?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

As I said, the public's understanding of it is increasing. In our report, we note that Canada isn't necessarily a leader in the public understanding on climate. Other countries have done a better job of that, and have a better understanding of it. I think one of the things Canada could do is make sure that the issue of climate change is looked as a central priority for the country, not just as something that Environment and Climate Change Canada and Natural Resources Canada work on. It's something that is a whole-of-government, whole-of-society, challenge to deal with.

It's a difficult question. You know, “just transition” is a good name, but it's not an easy thing to do. There are short-term considerations that need to be dealt with in trying to do something as ambitious as changing the energy mix of our country. It's a huge challenge, but I think we owe it to future generations, to our children and our grandchildren, to do what we can rather than just throw up our hands and say it's too difficult.