Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 8th, 2022

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number four of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee is meeting today to study report 5, “Lessons Learned from Canada's Record on Climate Change by the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development”.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid form pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Just so that you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind all participants to this meeting that taking screenshots or photos of your screen is not permitted.

Given the ongoing pandemic situation, and in light of the recommendations from health authorities, as well at the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on October 19, 2021, to remain healthy and safe, all those attending the meeting in person are to maintain two-metre physical distancing and must wear a non-medical mask when circulating in the room. It is highly recommended that the masks be worn at all times, including when seated. Proper hand hygiene must be maintained by using the provided hand sanitizer at the room entrance.

As the chair, I will be enforcing these measures for the duration of the meeting, and I thank members in advance for their co-operation.

Members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either the floor, English, or French. If interpretation is lost, please inform me immediately and we will ensure interpretation is properly restored before resuming the proceedings. The “raise hand” feature at the bottom of the screen can be used at any time if you wish to speak or alert the chair.

For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in a committee room. Keep in mind the Board of Internal Economy's guidelines for mask use and health protocols.

Before speaking please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officer. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking your mike should be on mute. As a reminder, all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members whether they are participating virtually or in person.

Before we begin, I would just like to ask the committee if we could take the last 30 minutes today to go in camera to get drafting instructions for the report.

Are we in agreement?

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Madam Chair, I don't think we're in agreement on proceeding to drafting instructions.

We've just had an opportunity to review the report. We're going to be hearing from the witnesses today, and I think it's reasonable to provide members some time to go over the evidence before coming in to prepare drafting instructions.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

My stated interest would be to, if at all possible, not break with public accounts tradition and therefore that we have one report coming from this. I would like to take some time to discuss it amongst both our party and the other parties here, because I would really hate to break with public accounts tradition and not have a unanimous report.

I'd like to see if we can't, offline, set up the parameters so that we can make sure we have a unified statement coming out as we face this significant challenge of climate change.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Madam Chair—

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Okay, then we will proceed—

Yes.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I see Ms. Shanahan has her hand up, and I was just going to add a comment if I could.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Okay, why don't we start with Mr. Fragiskatos?

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

It's a very straightforward comment. I understand what my colleagues have said, but I fail to see how taking 10 or 15 minutes at the end of a meeting to talk about drafting instructions is going to upend the tradition of the committee of having one report. We can talk about how exactly the report should be structured. These are basic things that will allow analysts to do their jobs so that we can get on with the work. If it's a sticking point, I guess it's a sticking point, but I'll allow Ms. Shanahan to elaborate as well.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Ms. Shanahan.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Along the same lines as what Mr. Fragiskatos said, I'm open either way. I want to clarify with the chair that we would have full rounds for everyone to ask their questions up until the expiry of the meeting, until the adjournment of the meeting. But I'm easy either way. I want to see a fulsome report and certainly a unanimous report.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you.

We don't have an agreement right now. I'm going to defer to the clerk.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Angela Crandall]

If there's no agreement, you can move on to the witnesses, Madam Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Okay, let's move on to the witnesses.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses. From the Office of the Auditor General are Jerry V. DeMarco, commissioner of the environment and sustainable development; Kimberley Leach, principal; and Elsa DaCosta, director. From Équiterre are Colleen Thorpe, executive director, and Marc-André Viau, director, government relations.

We'll start with the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development.

Commissioner, you have five minutes for your opening remarks. Please go ahead.

[Jerry V. DeMarco, Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

We are pleased to be testifying before the committee this morning.

I would like to acknowledge that this hearing is taking place on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

With me today are Kimberly Leach and Elsa Da Costa, the principal and director who were responsible for the report.

As you know, the Office of the Auditor General of Canada conducts performance and financial audits of the federal and territorial governments. We provide elected officials with objective, fact–based information and expert advice. We also undertake special examinations of Crown corporations, and we conduct additional work, such as a yearly commentary on our financial audit work and the climate report that I will be discussing today.

The commissioner of the environment and sustainable development, who is appointed by the auditor general, reports to Parliament at least once a year on environmental and sustainable development issues, including the specific matters set out in legislation, such as the new Canadian Net–Zero Emissions Accountability Act.

Our most recent reports, which were tabled in Parliament in November 2021, included a report on lessons learned from Canada's record on climate change. By choosing this topic to discuss today, the committee is sending a critical message about the urgency of addressing climate change.

In preparing our report on lessons learned, we looked back at our audit work on Canada's action over the last three decades. We also asked climate experts and former senior government officials what we can learn from the past in order to help translate today's good intentions into real results.

After more than 30 years, the trend in Canada's greenhouse gas emissions, which create harmful climate impacts, is going the wrong way. Despite repeated government commitments to decrease emissions, they have increased substantially, unlike in the other G7 countries.

During that time, Canadians have felt the devastating effects of climate change, such as droughts, floods, melting permafrost, heat waves, wildfires and storms.

Our report sets out eight lessons learned from Canada's action and inaction on the enduring climate crisis.

Leadership is the first lesson. Stronger leadership and coordination are needed to drive progress on climate change. Other lessons include reducing dependence on high-emission industries, learning to adapt to climate change impacts, investing in a climate-resilient future, increasing public awareness, acting on and not just speaking about climate targets, involving all climate solution actors and protecting the interests of future generations.

The new net-zero legislation seeks to bring more rigour to Canada's approach to greenhouse gas emission reductions. Just as this committee holds government to account on financial matters and program implementation, you can also consider holding government to account on its climate plans. Ensuring that government starts translating its plans and targets into effective action would be in keeping with lesson 6 of our report. Climate change is not just an environmental issue; its social and economic implications are just as significant.

The enduring crisis of climate change looms larger than ever. Like pandemics, climate change is a global crisis, one that experts have been raising the alarm about for decades. Pandemics and climate change both carry risks to human health and the economy, and both require whole-of-society responses to protect present and future generations.

To help frame discussion on climate change such as this one, our report provides critical questions that legislatures and others can consider to prompt action against commitments. We've provided these in an appendix to this statement for your reference.

In closing, there is a need for the federal government to achieve real outcomes, not just words on paper or unfulfilled promises. All too often Canada's environmental and sustainable development commitments are not met with the actions needed to protect air, land, water and wildlife, now and for future generations. This is a trend we urgently need to reverse.

Madam Chair, this concludes my opening remarks. We are happy to answer any questions the committee may have.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you, Commissioner.

I will now call on the witnesses from Équiterre.

[Colleen Thorpe, Executive Director , Équiterre]

Madam Chair, members of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, thank you for hearing from us today.

My name is Colleen Thorpe. I am the executive director of Équiterre, an environmental NGO with more than 150,000 members and supporters. We are involved in the sectors of agriculture, light and heavy-duty transportation, consumers, energy and climate change in general.

I will share my speaking time with my colleague Marc‑André Viau.

In his report of November 25, the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development concluded that, “Canada has gone from being a climate leader to falling behind other developed countries despite recent efforts.” This finding surprised no one. Our greenhouse gas emissions have been increasing because we continue to exploit oil and gas as if there was no climate crisis.

I would like to present to you two potential solutions in response to the issues raised in lessons one and five of the report.

First, we propose that the entire public service be provided with training on the climate crisis and the loss of biodiversity. We think that a starting point for government consistency in terms of climate action goes through a common understanding of how urgent the situation is. That way, public servants will be able to use all their expertise in this “war effort”.

I remind you that, in 2018, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change notified us that, to limit global warming to 1.5°C, rapid, profound and unprecedented changes were necessary in all aspects of society.

Large scale training for public servants is an approach the government has used in the past to meet its commitments on reconciliation. An employee of the Department of Justice recently told me how much of an impact the training she attended on the rights of indigenous peoples had on her. One of the things she learned is that, in negotiations with indigenous peoples, it is customary to leave an empty seat at the table, representing a place for future generations.

Our recent experience with vaccination during the pandemic also emphasizes how important it is to seek the support of the public service to make broader changes to behaviour among the general public.

The second solution we are proposing concerns another part of the commissioner's report, according to which, “Internal government planning cycles also favour short-term thinking at the expense of long-term planning.”

That problem is particularly acute when it comes to ruling on the protection of natural environments. Weighting is based on the value attributed to that environment and, right now, the calculation is based on its extraction potential. So the value of the forest is equal to the amount of wood that can be extracted from it. However, we know that, for Canada and its huge territory, one of the most effective ways to fight climate change is by maintaining natural spaces, which are today referred to as natural infrastructure.

So it has become necessary for the government to create models that put a value on that infrastructure while taking into account its ecosystem services, such as air quality, water filtration, climate regulation, carbon storage and the maintenance of habitat. Those calculations are based on well-established methods, and the public service could develop tools with the support of renowned experts.

I now yield the floor to my colleague.

[Marc-André Viau, Director, Government Relations, Équiterre]

Thank you.

To conclude our presentation, I will quickly go over the last point, which pertains to planning, and to the role of the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development and of the government. It mainly concerns lessons one, six and eight.

Essentially, lesson one of the report tells us that all levels of government must work together, which requires planning and coordination. Lesson six is among the most valuable ones, as it talks about the need to set ambitious targets, but also about achieving them. Finally lesson eight talks about the importance of long–term planning.

This rarely happens when I appear before a parliamentary committee, but I must say that I am optimistic this time. Why? Because Bill C‑12 on achieving net–zero emissions by 2050 received royal assent on June 29, 2021. We are here talking about a piece of legislation on Canada's climate responsibility, something that has been missing over the past 30 years.

More specifically, “the purpose of this Act is to require the setting of national targets for the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions based on the best scientific information available and to promote transparency, accountability and immediate and ambitious action in relation to achieving those targets”.

The Canadian Net-Zero Emissions Accountability Act asks the minister of the environment to set targets and to plan and implement measures to achieve them. We think that is a fairly good response to the concerns raised in the commissioner's report.

Far be it from me to say that the act is perfect. There is room for improvement, and the commissioner has a role to play in that regard.

On January 25, the commissioner received a letter cosigned by four environmental organizations, including ours, about his role in implementing this act. This will help ensure that the future assessment report on measures we will read in 2050—so in 30 years—will consist of lessons learned in achieving net–zero emissions, and not of lessons learned from what we will not have done.

Under the—

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you, Mr. Viau, for your comments.

[Marc-André Viau]

Can you let me wrap up?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Yes.

[Marc-André Viau]

Under the act, the commissioner must, at least once every five years, examine and report on the Government of Canada's implementation of measures aimed at mitigating climate change, including initiatives to achieve the most recent target in greenhouse gas emissions mentioned in the relevant assessment report.

We really look forward to hearing the commissioner talk about the role he will play in the implementation of this act, including on the topic of the frequency of reports and the report that will be used as a reference.

When it comes to lesson six, it will be important to set targets—

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you so much, Mr. Viau. We'll have to wrap it up now.

We will now have to go into our rounds of questions, and we'll begin with the official opposition for six minutes.

Mr. Lawrence, please go ahead for six minutes.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you very much. I'm very much enjoying our new chair. I think she's doing a fabulous job.

Thank you very much to our witnesses.

All of my questions will be for the commissioner. I also intend to split the last minute or so, and give that to the great member of the Green Party, Mr. Morrice, just so that everyone is aware.

I would like to read from the report. It says the Paris Agreement was to “reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 30% below 2005 levels by 2030, and under the Copenhagen Accord, it committed to reducing emissions by 17% below its 2005 level by 2020.”

Have these targets been achieved? If not, how far away are we?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to address that by first saying that the 2020 data are coming from Environment and Climate Change Canada very soon, so we can't definitively say what the 2020 data will be. However, looking at the trend line, it does not appear that the 2020 target will have been met. There's a two-year lag in Canada in the data on emissions.

So, no, the targets have not been met. We've had several targets over the years and four major international agreements: Rio, Kyoto, Copenhagen and Paris. We've had several plans over the years, but the problem is in implementation, not so much in setting targets.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you.

In the last seven years, has this government achieved any of the international carbon reduction targets?