Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 25th, 2022

[Gina Wilson]

We are definitely working towards that shift, sir.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you.

We now move on to Ms. Bradford for six minutes.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all of our witnesses for joining us today for this very important report.

I will address my first few questions to the Auditor General.

I'm looking at page 8 of the report and specifically the graph that looks at the “greatest unmet structural mitigation needs”. It indicates that they were in British Columbia and Alberta, by a long shot, when you look at it. In the case of B.C., it seems to be “[e]ligible but unfunded” that jumps out at you, and in the case of Alberta, it's “unreviewed”—projects that haven't been reviewed.

Do you know why this is? Why is there such a discrepancy between the situation in B.C. and Alberta versus the rest of the country?

[Karen Hogan]

Madam Chair, that's a question I would suggest you actually ask the department. You have the luxury of having the deputy minister here and she would be better placed to answer that.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Okay, that's fine. Thank you very much.

I will address that to you, if you don't mind. I know that this is obviously an issue that's of personal concern to you, so I would like to know how you feel about that.

[Gina Wilson]

Is it my turn now?

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Yes, it's your turn. Thank you.

[Gina Wilson]

On those particular projects, I can't speak to the regional variations that exist, but I would say as a starting point that I think we would certainly want and prefer to be funding all 112 of these projects. I'll explain this with some context, if I may.

This department has a finite amount of resources that are appropriated each year. There are 112 and I think we're actually down to about 96 or 94 unfunded mitigation projects.

There are also thousands of unfunded infrastructure projects at large across first nation communities in Canada. This is something we do not know. It's everything from school renovations where kids can learn to water projects that lead to the lifting of drinking water advisories. I'm not even going to get into housing and homelessness. These are the choices that this department, with its first nation partners, ends up making: What do we fund this year? What do we fund now? What do we fund next month?

The announcement that was made yesterday was actually quite hopeful for me, as it was about Canada's national adaptation strategy to protect communities and build a strong economy. I connected, for instance, with the Infrastructure deputy minister today and they confirmed that, yes, for the disaster mitigation adaptation fund indigenous recipients are eligible and they'll fund 100% of eligible expenses for their projects. We're going to be working closely now with Environment Canada and Infrastructure to try to get more projects funded.

Thank you.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

According to the report's recommendation 8.36, the department should “address the backlogs of eligible but unfunded structural mitigation projects and of unreviewed structural mitigation projects to effectively allocate resources to reduce the impact of emergencies on First Nations communities.” It seems the same ones get hit over and over again.

What can the department do without additional funding? Are there things that you could do that don't necessarily involve additional funding?

[Gina Wilson]

That's a great question. What can the department do? We ask ourselves that question a lot, and then we ask ourselves if we are making that decision unilaterally or making that decision with first nations.

Certainly, when it comes to infrastructure funding, we try to work as closely as possible in partnership with those first nations and determine priorities collectively. Sometimes the mitigation priorities don't move up quickly enough. Perhaps the community is looking for housing before it is looking to clear up the eroding shoreline. Those choices come down to very difficult ones for both the department and the community, but I appreciate the—

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I want to make sure I get this in.

From 2018-19 to 2021-22, 13 first nations communities were evacuated at least three times, and four of the 13 have not applied for funding for non-structural preparedness and mitigation activities. Why did some of the most heavily affected communities not apply for funding?

[Gina Wilson]

I'm going to defer to Joanne or Kenza on that one, to speak directly to those particular communities.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Okay, thank you.

[Joanne Wilkinson, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indigenous Services]

I would say that we are increasingly reaching out proactively to nations that have not had the capacity in the past to put those types of proposals together. We've tried to lighten the burden for nations in terms of those application processes and, as the deputy mentioned, really work in partnership with them so that we are at the table together with the nation, with the province, with ourselves and federal partners throughout the system to bring those solutions forward in a way that does not burden them on the application process.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you.

There are six seconds left.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Okay.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Now we move to Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné for six minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair. You are doing a very good job.

I thank my colleague Mr. McCauley for his snacks, which are doing us all good today.

We heard a rather interesting introduction from our Conservative colleague about how devastating it is to read that after three reports from the Auditor General and from the previous Auditor General, there is little or no improvement. Despite the recommendations that have been made and accepted, we see that absolutely nothing has been done, even though these are the same problems. There may have been projects, no one is saying otherwise, but they are not enough. We know that climate change will intensify and that the number of forest fires and floods, among other things, will increase. Yet we are still in reaction mode rather than prevention mode, despite all the recommendations that have been made in this regard. This is a real problem.

So I would like to put a question to the Department of Indigenous Services.

I don't think anyone here is denying climate change. Knowing that it's going to increase over time, are you in a position, first of all, to finally do prevention on reserves, or are you just going to continue to react to emergencies, which ends up costing six times as much?

[Gina Wilson]

We're increasing some things, but I'm going to hand over to my colleague.

[Valerie Gideon, Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services]

Thank you very much for your question.

We are in a period of transition. We are certainly also making demands for funding that would allow us to meet all the needs that have been raised.

The current program has always been structured to respond to emergencies. So we have resources for that. We also have the capacity to apply for funding, on an annual basis, to respond to claims for expenses that have been incurred to deal with emergencies and put strategies in place.

The responsibility for emergency management lies primarily with the provinces and territories. So we absolutely have to work with them and involve First Nations partners. Our response depends on the willingness and ability of the provinces and territories to make the transition to preventive measures.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

The department has signed agreements on emergency management services in six provinces. What about the other provinces and territories?

[Valerie Gideon]

We are in discussions with the provinces and territories.

It's also important to know that even in provinces where we don't have a formal agreement, when there are emergencies, we work closely with them. For example, during Hurricane Fiona, we worked very closely with the provincial governments, as well as with first nations partners, even though we don't have a bilateral agreement with each of those jurisdictions.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

We are always told that there is a wonderful collaboration, but we see that, in the reports, nothing improves. So it's fantastic to talk about collaboration, but the agreements should have been signed a long time ago.

When we talk about urgency, usually it goes faster. Why have these agreements still not been signed?

[Valerie Gideon]

Some aspects also depend on how other jurisdictions and first nations partners prioritize. It must also be recognized that the number of emergencies we face each year has increased rapidly and these are occurring across the country.