Evidence of meeting #41 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cmhc.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Karen Hogan  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
Romy Bowers  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
Jean-François Tremblay  Deputy Minister , Department of Employment and Social Development
Kelly Gillis  Deputy Minister, Infrastructure Canada

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 41 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee is meeting today to undertake a study on "Report 5: Chronic Homelessness" of reports 5 to 8 of the Auditor General of Canada, referred to the committee on Tuesday, November 15.

All witnesses have passed their sound and Internet connection test.

I'd like to now welcome our witnesses.

From the Office of the Auditor General, we have Karen Hogan, Auditor General of Canada. It's nice to see her again. With her are Casey Thomas, assistant auditor general, and Sean MacLennan, director.

From the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, we have Romy Bowers, president and chief executive officer, and Nadine Leblanc, senior vice-president, policy.

From Employment and Social Development Canada, we have Jean-François Tremblay, deputy minister, and Nisa Tummon, assistant deputy minister, program operations branch.

From Infrastructure Canada, we have Kelly Gillis, deputy minister; Janet Goulding, assistant deputy minister, community policy and programs branch; and Kris Johnson, director general, homelessness policy directorate.

Before we begin, the clerk has informed me that we have until 5:45 p.m., with a hard stop at that time. I'll endeavour to get us through as many rounds as possible. Should we exhaust the line of questioning, of course, we can always adjourn early, but we must stop by 5:45 p.m.

To all our witnesses and guests today, I apologize that we're starting late. Unfortunately, votes in the House of Commons held members up for a little longer than anticipated.

Ms. Hogan, I'll turn to you. You have the floor for five minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Karen Hogan Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Mr. Chair, thank you for this opportunity to discuss our report on chronic homelessness, which was tabled in Parliament on November 15. I would like to acknowledge that this hearing is taking place on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe people.

Joining me today is Sean MacLennan, who led this audit.

This audit examined whether Employment and Social Development Canada and Infrastructure Canada worked together to prevent and reduce chronic homelessness. We also wanted to know whether the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, CMHC, delivered programs that improved housing outcomes for vulnerable Canadians, including those experiencing chronic homelessness.

We found that the organizations did not know whether efforts to date had improved housing outcomes for vulnerable Canadians. Infrastructure Canada did not have all the information it needed to know whether homelessness and chronic homelessness had increased or decreased since 2019. Where the department did have data, for example on the increased use of shelters by families since 2016, it did not analyze why this was occurring or whether there was a need to adjust its programs.

The Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation did not know whether those most in need benefited from its housing initiatives. The corporation measured and reported on its outputs, such as the total number of units built, but it did not know how many people were being housed or which vulnerable groups were being helped. For example, it did not know whether units intended for persons with disabilities were in fact occupied by disabled persons. In addition, some rental housing units that the corporation considered affordable were often not affordable for low-income households and vulnerable groups.

One of my biggest concerns is the lack of federal accountability for achieving Canada's target to reduce chronic homelessness by half by 2028. The national housing strategy was launched five years ago, in 2017, yet there is still no lead to achieve this target.

Despite being the lead for the national housing strategy and overseeing the majority of its funding, the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation took the position that it was not directly accountable for addressing chronic homelessness. Infrastructure Canada was also of the view that while it contributed to reducing chronic homelessness, it was not solely accountable for achieving the strategy's target of reducing chronic homelessness.

Infrastructure Canada and the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation were not coordinating their efforts to deliver on the national housing strategy's objectives and get a roof over the heads of individuals and families. This was despite the organizations' acknowledgement that collaboration and coordination, both inside and outside the federal government, are vital to addressing the housing needs of priority vulnerable groups.

Without a better alignment of efforts and clear accountability at the federal level, Infrastructure Canada and the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation are unlikely to meet the country's target to reduce chronic homelessness by half by 2028.

Mr. Chair, this concludes my opening remarks. We would be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you very much, Auditor General.

We'll be turning to some questions shortly, but first we're going to hear from the other three groups.

I'll now turn to Ms. Bowers.

You have the floor for five minutes. Please proceed with your opening comments.

3:55 p.m.

Romy Bowers President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank this committee for inviting me here today.

On any given night, tens of thousands of people in Canada experience homelessness. It’s a complex issue that requires a collaborative approach. An approach that accounts for the many factors that can result in a person experiencing homelessness. These can be purely economic factors, but often they’re also tied to health and addiction issues. When we speak about people being made vulnerable to homelessness, this is what we’re talking about. It highlights the breadth of the response we need to muster.

CMHC leads Canada’s overarching National Housing Strategy, or the NHS, which includes Reaching Home, Canada’s Homelessness Strategy, led by Infrastructure Canada.

CMHC also delivers programming under the national housing strategy that supports the housing needs of vulnerable populations, including those experiencing, or at risk of experiencing, homelessness. These programs are delivering real results.

For example, the rapid housing initiative specifically targets those most in need through the rapid creation of housing units. More than 2,500 housing units for people experiencing or at risk of homelessness are currently being built with funds from this initiative.

The federal national housing co-investment fund supports the creation and renovation of affordable housing. Among its achievements, it has yielded over 3,700 shelter beds, 3,500 supportive housing units, and 1,600 transitional housing beds, so far.

Addressing chronic homelessness is a multi-faceted issue requiring support across all levels of government. CMHC and Infrastructure Canada recognize that reducing homelessness, including chronic homelessness, requires clear accountability, alignment of federal initiatives, and cross-jurisdictional support and efforts.

Therefore, we are ready to act on the recommendations in the audit work to more closely support the achievement of this objective. This includes further defining and analyzing the housing needs of vulnerable populations, and measuring how our programs are meeting those needs.

I believe it is very important to take this opportunity to point out that CMHC follows rigorous and strict governance and accounting principles in the delivery of its mandate. CMHC knows which population groups are targeted at application, and has a process in place to ensure that the units remain targeted to those households over time. We will continue to offer Canadians timely, clear, and transparent reporting that tracks spending and identifies recipients.

We have already created a website dedicated to the national housing strategy, which includes a regularly updated section reporting progress. This data is, however, limited by the fact that the programs are ongoing and that construction projects take time to be completed.

We are working on various initiatives, including a project in partnership with Statistics Canada, to access more comprehensive administrative data about those being housed in NHS units. In doing this, we carefully consider privacy implications of collecting data on vulnerable populations.

We are always seeking ways to improve our reporting, just as we welcome all ideas that can help to solve the problem of chronic homelessness in Canada. We believe the recommendations in this audit report can help us do both.

I am heartened to see that the audit’s recommendations reinforce and strengthen our commitment to close collaboration and to a human rights-based approach to housing. These are the central pillars of CMHC’s approach to addressing housing need.

In conclusion, I would like to thank the Office of the Auditor General for this report. We agree with its recommendations and appreciate their guidance.

Thank you very much for your time today. I would be very happy to answer any questions.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you, Ms. Bowers.

We will now turn to Mr. Tremblay.

Mr. Tremblay, you have the floor for five minutes.

4 p.m.

Jean-François Tremblay Deputy Minister , Department of Employment and Social Development

Mr. Chair, I am happy to be here today. I would like to acknowledge that I am speaking from the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin nation.

I want to thank the Auditor General and her team for highlighting the important issue of chronic homelessness in Canada.

I am joined by Nisa Tummon, assistant deputy minister of the program operations branch for Service Canada.

As you know, chronic homelessness is a pressing issue. Reaching Home is actually a $3.4-billion program, over nine years, under the national housing strategy. It supports Canada’s commitment to reduce chronic homelessness by 50% by the end of the fiscal year 2027-28.

In the fall of 2021, the Reaching Home program was transferred from Employment and Social Development Canada, or ESDC, to Infrastructure Canada to support the newly created position of Minister of Housing and Diversity and Inclusion.

While accountability for Reaching Home was transferred, Service Canada continues to deliver a portion of the program on behalf of Infrastructure Canada. This was done to ensure continuity of service to communities and was codified through a memorandum of understanding between our departments.

ESDC, or Service Canada, has similar arrangements to deliver programs on behalf of other government departments. This means that we are still a bit involved in working particularly with funding recipients to ensure they provide the requisite information as outlined in their contribution agreements.

Thank you for your attention.

I would be happy to answer any questions you may have, including questions related to the role of Service Canada in service delivery for Reaching Home.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you, Mr. Tremblay.

Now, from Infrastructure Canada, we have Ms. Gillis.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

4 p.m.

Kelly Gillis Deputy Minister, Infrastructure Canada

I thank the Office of the Auditor General for the performance audit of chronic homelessness in Canada. The report makes several important observations about our response to chronic homelessness, and we accept the recommendations.

Homelessness is a significant and complex challenge in Canada, and to address it we need better data and more coordination. When Reaching Home launched in 2019, it followed years of research and engagement with all orders of government and the homeless-serving sector, which pointed to the need for a new approach: an approach focused on transparency, coordination and evidence-based decision-making made at the local level to address their specific contexts.

This involved key transformations where communities are required to implement an international best practice called “coordinated access”, which requires, among other things, developing a real-time list of all people experiencing homelessness and details regarding their housing and service needs. In order for communities to successfully implement this significant change, new tools, practices and guidance and modernized systems were required. We knew that to make this data-driven approach possible, the homeless-serving sector would have to radically transform how it operates.

We were making good progress in helping our community partners adapt to this new way of working when the pandemic hit in March 2020, less than a year after the program was launched. The first year of the pandemic saw a substantive shift in shelter services as communities reduced capacity in existing shelters to enable physical distancing, while bringing new temporary facilities online to compensate. In all, 2020 saw a 16% drop in the number of people accessing shelters, while the number of shelter users experiencing chronic homelessness remained steady at approximately 32,000 people. Since then, communities have reported a 79% increase in the number of people sleeping outside, including in encampments.

Understandably, this change in priorities led to delays in implementing coordinated access and new systems to support results reporting.

During the first three years of the program, over half of the $1.36 billion provided—$708.6 million, to be exact—was aimed at helping communities to deal with the pandemic-related needs. Among other activities, communities used this funding for medical services such as hiring nurses for vaccination clinics in shelters, temporary accommodations such as placement in motels, PPE and help to provide basic services such as portable washrooms and handwashing stations to replace what was no longer available during lockdowns.

Despite needing to completely adapt their services to respond to the COVID-19 pandemic, communities did not stop delivering long-term homelessness prevention and reduction services. Indeed, between April 2019 and March 2021, Reaching Home provided improved outcomes for 62,000 people who were prevented from becoming homeless, and nearly 32,000 people experiencing homelessness were helped to find housing.

The program also addressed some of the root causes of homelessness by connecting nearly 19,000 people to income assistance benefits, over 7,000 people to new paid employment, over 4,000 people to training programs and over 4,000 people to education programs.

Reaching Home improved outcomes for every person who accessed the 18,000 temporary accommodation spaces created when shelters had to reduce their capacity to ensure physical distancing. In fact, there were over 137,000 placements in these types of spaces between March 2020 and March 2021.

With regard to program delivery, as of November 25, a total of 33 communities out of 60 have implemented coordinated access, and we are working with the 27 remaining communities to have this program requirement in place by March 31, 2023.

Since 2019, the Canadian Alliance to End Homelessness has reported that eight Reaching Home communities have achieved measurable and verified reductions in chronic homelessness. Key highlights include:

Medicine Hat, Alberta, has gone to functional zero; Guelph-Wellington County in Ontario has sustained a reduction between 10% and 30% of chronic homelessness; Ottawa, Ontario, has reduced chronic homelessness by 15%; Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, has reduced chronic homelessness by 31%; and Dufferin County in Ontario is on track to reach functional zero, having already reduced by 74% since 2019.

Work to sustain functional zero is an ongoing effort. Knowing that some communities still have steps to take, this past summer we issued additional guidance related to coordinated access implementation to clarify program requirements and enhance the ability of communities to determine where they should focus their efforts.

Going forward, the government has doubled funding for Reaching Home to continue to support these communities in reducing chronic homelessness, but we know that more is needed. That is why budget 2022 announced a research project to support learning about what works in certain communities and sharing those lessons with other communities. As well, a veterans homelessness program will soon be launched that will specifically address the needs of our veterans.

The audit report also rightly notes that most recent federal data available on emergency shelters is from 2019. The fact is that in order to continue having accurate estimates of national shelter use, it was necessary for the department to adjust its methodology in light of the creation of temporary shelter space in response to the COVID-19 pandemic. This was done, and the national shelter use estimates for 2020 are expected to be released by the end of this calendar year. Estimates for 2021 and 2022 are expected in 2023.

Finally, I would like to address the findings on accountability. I accept our role as a leader in Canada's efforts to reduce chronic homelessness. Chronic homelessness is complex and requires active participation from all levels of government, non-profit organizations and civil society.

A key partner for us in this work, as the audit shows, is the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, as it has several mechanisms to address housing needs in Canada under the national housing strategy umbrella. For this reason, we are developing a strategy to ensure that Reaching Home funding recipients are aware of these funding opportunities that could support their efforts to address homelessness.

Internally, we are also implementing formal mechanisms to improve the collaboration between officials, which we know will translate into an improved alignment of efforts, including within the broader portfolio of infrastructure.

We are committed to continuing our work with other departments and other governments and with the not-for-profit sector, to support the most vulnerable Canadians across the country.

I look forward to speaking further about the department's work and our commitment to Canadians and to answering your questions.

Thank you.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you very much.

Some members will notice that I did give Ms. Gillis an extra minute there. We're still well under our time, though, as one or two of our guests did not use their full time.

I want to remind members that we have a good number of witnesses here today. When you're questioning the witnesses, please make it clear to whom you're putting the question so that I don't have to intervene for clarity. It will just allow for better flow.

As well, I will remind members that at our last few meetings, I allowed members to go over their time as we were studying the public accounts. I'm going to revert back to my traditional stopwatch here. If a witness is in the middle of answering a question and the time has expired, I will allow for that answer to be completed within reasonable limits, but the moment you interrupt the witness, your time will end. You should watch your clock as well, because I don't like to cut off witnesses [Technical difficulty—Editor].

Let's begin our first round with Mr. McCauley.

You have the floor for six minutes, please.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Mr. Chair, thanks very much.

Witnesses, thanks for joining us. AG Hogan and Mr. MacLennan, thanks for being here in person.

To start, I have to express my disappointment that not a single witness besides the AG office chose to show up in person today for such an important study. I recognize that someone might be out of town, or someone may be under the weather, but for every single witness not to show, it's a bit disappointing. I want to thank the AG for being here in person.

AG Hogan, you've read, I assume, the action plans from the departments. Do you get a sense that they're reasonable and that they're aggressive enough to tackle the ongoing issues?

4:10 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

We do review the action plans when they are submitted to the committee here. Some of them are not detailed enough for me to tell you whether or not they are aggressive enough. I must admit that it looks like actions will be taken, but I am disappointed that a lead will only be identified by December 2023, which in my view is another year out and almost six years into the national housing strategy. I believe federal accountability is important in order to align the programs properly and demonstrate achievement of the targets.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

That was one of my follow-up questions. One of the biggest concerns you expressed was lack of accountability. Do you fear that we're going to lose another year if we're not actually appointing someone to be accountable for this for another year?

4:10 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

I think it's clear over time that activity is happening. Housing units are being built and services are being provided, but the lack of accountability is not necessarily aligning the programs to meet the needs of the most vulnerable and ensuring that all of the organizations involved are providing the data needed to demonstrate achievement or progress towards that. I do think that one more year just delays the ability to demonstrate the progress.

In the audit, we did conclude that we felt it was unlikely that the government would meet its target, given its current progress and lack of data to demonstrate progress.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Thanks. That's disappointing.

In the third paragraph of your opening statement, you commented about organizations not knowing whether efforts to date had improved outcomes.

I'm looking at some comments from the housing minister. He commented that 1.1 million Canadians have been housed since 2015, that half a million housing units have been built, and that 1.1 million Canadian families met their housing needs under this program.

What does he know that perhaps you don't know? Half a million houses have been built, but the departments don't seem to be able to communicate or track who's getting housed or whom they're helping.

4:10 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

I think I would agree with some of those statements. We show in our report that there are units being built. That is—

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Half a million?

4:10 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

—clearly measured and the government is being accountable. We didn't look at all of the programs under the national housing strategy—we only looked at six of them—so perhaps the comments of the minister were broader.

The point we're trying to make is that building a unit targeted for a group doesn't mean a member of that group is actually being housed. In order to demonstrate that you're meeting the needs of the most vulnerable, you need to track that information: to measure the outcome, not just the output of creating a unit.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Right.

I'm going to switch over to CMHC.

Ms. Bowers, there was, funnily enough, a timely article in The Globe and Mail. The headline states that the housing advocate says that the national housing strategy is failing. That's our national housing advocate. She says that the national housing strategy “is failing” and “needs a complete overhaul.”

What are your thoughts on her critique?

4:15 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Romy Bowers

Chair, thank you very much for that question.

The national housing strategy is a significant development, in that in 2015—

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

The housing advocate says it's failing. Do you agree with that?

4:15 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Romy Bowers

The national housing strategy is intended to serve the housing needs of Canadians across the housing continuum. We have a number of programs that roll up under the—

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

But our housing advocate, who has been appointed by the government, specifically says it's failing.

I have a straightforward question for you: Do you agree with our national housing advocate that the strategy is failing?

4:15 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Romy Bowers

I do not agree with the statement that the national housing strategy is failing.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Okay, that's fair.

I'm going to go to your action plan, 65.2. It says that one of the outcomes is this: “CMHC is better able to confirm who is being housed in NHS-supported units”.

If you need to be “better able to confirm”, does that mean you do not know who's being housed in the units?

4:15 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Romy Bowers

We have a rigorous due diligence process in assessing the applications that come into the national housing strategy portal. We are clear when applications are approved who the housing units are for, the target populations—