Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 29th, 2022

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I'm concerned that when we transfer funds to for-profit developers, we see an increase, especially in the rental program, to the total cost of rent, which makes it even more out of reach for those persons.

We saw in that report just this summer and last summer out of Toronto. We're seeing larger increases to rent that are receiving funding from CMHC and are leaving these units out of reach. Why are we seeing this—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Desjarlais, that is your time, but I'm hoping you will have another minute in our next round.

We'll turn now to Mr. Genuis.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

As we have been talking about, this report from the Auditor General reveals significant gaps, approaching a total absence, in terms of data collection and evaluation with respect to the government's performance in attempting to combat homelessness. The findings of the Auditor General are pretty clear, and the members—at least the members of the opposition, and maybe some members of the government—are gravely concerned about these findings.

I'm getting the sense from the responses to some of these questions that there's not a fulsome recognition of how damning these findings are.

I'll ask a simple question. We can go through the deputy ministers. More or less, a yes-or-no answer should be fine for this. Do you agree that something has gone gravely wrong here?

We will start with Ms. Bowers.

[Romy Bowers]

I accept the findings of the Auditor General and will take concerted action to implement the recommendations.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Do you acknowledge that those findings are that grievous errors have been made in the process?

[Romy Bowers]

I thank the Auditor General for the findings, and I'm very committed to addressing the action plans that it advised.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay.

Take two.... Go ahead, Ms. Gillis.

[Kelly Gillis]

Thank you, Chair, for the question.

We have submitted an action plan to address the findings of the Auditor General, which we think are extremely important.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Did something go gravely wrong here?

[Kelly Gillis]

As I said, we agree with the Auditor General's recommendations and we are actioning them.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Go ahead, Mr. Tremblay.

[Jean-François Tremblay]

I have the same response.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

The same response to which? Do you mean the latest?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

Yes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay. Thank you.

To the Auditor General, is it your finding that things have gone gravely wrong? Are you surprised that someone didn't notice earlier in the process that there wasn't effective data collection or a response to it?

[Karen Hogan]

Our audit identified that the government set an important target in the national housing strategy. None of the entities we audited felt that they were the lead responsible to ensure the accountability and achievement of that target.

I think it flows that when you're accountable for something, you set yourself up to measure it properly. What we saw is that data is being collected. Information is being collected. It's not being fully analyzed, but it is more about outputs than about outcomes.

This target is one that is really outcome-driven, which is to see that those most in need have been housed, and that chronic homelessness and homelessness have decreased.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you very much for your work.

My conclusion here is that nobody was responsible for achieving this target, or saw themselves as responsible for achieving this target, and nobody thought that was an issue, even up until now, when it has been pointed out. There's a formal acceptance of your findings, but I don't get a sense of appreciation of the gravity of what has gone wrong at all. I look forward to being able to engage with the minister on it.

I'll follow up on my colleague Mr. Aitchison's point about bonuses. In spite of the findings of this audit, and the larger situation in terms of the dire worsening of the homelessness situation in our country, significant bonuses were paid out.

To follow up on his question, who makes decisions about bonuses paid to senior public servants? Is that a decision made by the minister or by public servants? Is it automatic? Where does that decision come from?

[Romy Bowers]

I'll answer with respect to CMHC, which is an independent Crown corporation. We are governed by an independent board of directors, which approves our compensation framework as well as recommendations with respect to the bonus framework.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

I have 30 seconds, so I would like to quickly hear from the other two deputy ministers, please.

[Kelly Gillis]

For senior public servants in the core public service, the Treasury Board Secretariat has a policy that all departments follow in how they approach performance management.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Who makes the decision, though? Who signs off on that policy?

[Kelly Gillis]

There are different committees at Infrastructure Canada. In the end, the application of individual performance bonuses to individuals would be by the deputy minister, but it is within Treasury Board guidance and guidelines.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Would the minister be consulted on that?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Genuis. You will have another very brief opportunity in another round, but to ensure that happens I'm going to keep us on track.

I believe the next member is Ms. Bradford.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses who are here today.

Our government believes that housing is a human right.

Ms. Bowers, could you please explain how the national housing strategy reflects a human rights-based approach to housing?