Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 29th, 2022

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank all the witnesses for being here.

There is a serious housing crisis in Canada, and so it is very important to discuss it today. I am going to ask Ms. Bowers my questions.

Yesterday, you put out a press release saying that Canada needs 3.5 million homes by 2030, whether they are in the private market or are social housing. Those are your own figures, CHMC's figures, and Scotiabank gave us the same figure in a study published a few months ago.

I spoke with a CMHC economist at a forum in Laval a few weeks ago. He said that 1.1 million homes were needed in Quebec alone. That corresponds roughly to the figure you published yesterday. He said that if we look just to the private market, it is going to build 500,000 homes. So there is a shortfall of 600,000 homes, and if we want to solve the problems of affordability and accessibility, the government is going to have to intervene somewhere in the process and build those 600,000 homes. At this point, the least we can say is that it isn't happening.

A few months ago, the federal housing advocate said in a report that in the last five years, the National Housing Strategy has resulted in the construction of 35,000 units and the renovation of 60,000 more, for a total of an additional 100,000. In Quebec alone, we need 600,000 homes right now.

When we talk about homelessness, the ultimate goal, at the end of the process, is to house people. There is therefore a connection with the National Housing Strategy, and it is not working. We are among the worst countries in the G7 when it comes to the average number of dwellings per 1,000 residents. I believe the number is 424. Five years after the national strategy was put in place, and after huge expenditures, we have not succeeded. There is also a lack of accountability.

I am going to ask you a specific question, Ms. Bowers. In Quebec alone, the market is going to be building 500,000 units, when we need 1.1 million. What is the plan to build those 600,000 units?

[Romy Bowers]

Thank you very much for the question, Mr. Chair.

As a point of clarification, when I talk to people about the housing crisis in Canada, I like to describe it from two perspectives. About 95% of the housing in Canada is created by the private sector. Less than 5% is community or social housing. The nature of the crisis is different.

With respect to housing in the private sector, there is a disconnect between the demand for that housing and the supply. The supply is created by private sector actors. One thing the government introduced through budget 2022 is a program called the housing accelerator fund. The housing accelerator fund is a program to break down barriers existing at the local level that prevent supply responses from occurring when there is increased demand. The program is in the process of being developed. We feel there is huge potential in that program to work with actors at the local level in order to break down the barriers to creating housing supply. That's one part of the crisis.

The second part of the crisis refers to the social or community housing sector. We have about 650,000 social housing units in Canada. It's 4% of our housing stock. It's quite a small percentage, relative to the total stock. It's one of the lower percentages among G7 countries.

Through the national housing strategy, the government has made unprecedented investments in housing. It is delivering results. I can provide a large number of pieces of information to you. The target of the national housing strategy, as it's currently funded, is to create 160,000 new units of housing funded by the federal government. Five years in, we're at about 62% completion. CMHC has made commitments for about 115,000 units. More is needed, and we are absolutely committed to using the existing funds we have available. They're also developing new programs to ensure there's housing for those in need.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, but I would like to have a bit more information.

You say your objective was to build 160,000 units and you have achieved 62 per cent of that figure. How many of those units will help the most vulnerable people, those who are spending more than 30 per cent of their income on housing? Of that number, how many social housing units are there plans to build, exactly?

[Romy Bowers]

I should clarify that the 160,000 new units are the target for the 10-year period of the national housing strategy. To date, 115,000 units have been funded.

As you know, construction takes time, so these projects are at various stages of completion. Of the 115,000 units, approximately 45,000 are for deeply affordable housing, if that's your question.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

The National Housing Co-Investment Fund and the Rental Construction Financing Initiative essentially involve loans. The units built under those programs are referred to as affordable. In Montreal, however, the rents for this type of housing are on the order of $2,200 per month.

According to organizations on the ground, the National Housing Strategy needs to be reviewed so that more money is sent to not-for-profit organizations to buy units that are currently on the private market. That would guarantee the long-term affordability of those units.

Do you think it is time to review the Strategy in order to create programs like that?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Trudel, your speaking time is up, but you will have the opportunity to pick this up again in the next round of questions, in a few minutes.

We'll now turn to Mr. Desjarlais, for six minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses and the Auditor General for being present with us, and for producing this very important report. There's no question that homelessness and housing across Canada are major concerns, not just to parliamentarians but to folks who are actually living this every single day.

Unfortunately, I represent one the most dramatically under-housed populations in Canada. This is in Edmonton, Alberta. It's an emergency, and has been an emergency for several years now. When I say “emergency”, I really want to put this into context. There are consequences to decisions, and there are consequences to inaction. In Edmonton, in 2021, there were more deaths recorded than in the two years prior combined. The Edmonton Coalition on Housing and Homelessness indicated there were 222 identified people who died in Edmonton last year. That represents a huge increase compared to preceding years.

It is also identified in some of the report information. In exhibit 5.4, the report showed that chronic homelessness was 11.3% higher in 2019 than the 2016 baseline. What we're seeing very clearly in Edmonton is what we're seeing right across the country: an increase in the number of folks who are identifying as houseless from city to city, and from coast to coast to coast.

I forget which official mentioned this, but it's also in the report. The target was a 31% decrease by 2023-24, and a 50% decrease in that demand by 2027-28. To have a chance of actually achieving that goal, chronic houselessness would need to fall by 38% between 2020 and 2024, and by 55% by 2027-28. It's going to be an incredible challenge, I see, in just how far behind we actually are in hitting these targets.

In my community, you don't have to look far. I encourage members to come to Boyle Street and McCauley, come to Alberta Avenue, and witness some of the dramatic increases in houselessness across our city in Edmonton.

The programs may not be working. We're here to figure that out. I'm really pleased to see the Auditor General table a report that's going to give us an opportunity to talk about accountability. We are not only facing a crisis in housing; we are also facing a crisis in accountability. We need to understand how these systems are functioning. Canadians deserve to understand how these investments work, and that these investments are actually hitting targets.

I was so disappointed to see in this report that we don't know the targeted information of those vulnerable populations that were served. If we are truly going to have a program that's outcome-based, that talks about and addressees houselessness, these critical factors must be included. We can't simply talk about the number of units. Understanding who is in those units is a critical piece to the Auditor General's report, and one that this committee is tasked with, trying to enforce some accountability and understand why we have a national housing strategy built without the target of ensuring that vulnerable folks actually got placed in housing.

This is strange. We're talking more about units than about the people those units should serve. It's incredibly important that we talk about the programs and the outcomes that we expect and that Canadians expect.

My question would be for CMHC, Infrastructure Canada, and ESDC: Who is ultimately responsible for achieving the national housing strategy targets?

I want to preface this by stating that the Auditor General points out very clearly that each of the three departments mentioned had a failure in trying to interact with one another in a way that was going to produce the best outcomes.

Starting with CMHC, who is responsible for achieving the national housing strategy?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Just let me interrupt; I have paused the time.

Mr. Desjarlais, it sounds like you want to hear from everyone, so I just want to put you on notice that you have about one minute and 40 seconds.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Please be quick with the responses.

[Romy Bowers]

CMHC is responsible for the overall national housing strategy and all its targets. We work in collaboration with Infrastructure Canada on the homelessness target.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much for that.

Infrastructure Canada, go ahead.

[Kelly Gillis]

Thank you.

As Ms. Bowers said, we work in collaboration on that particular target.

Infrastructure Canada is responsible for leading on the program Reaching Home, which is a really important program. It is outcomes-based and we're working with communities to have the data that you have mentioned. We are making headway in each community as we're operating and implementing coordinated access to know who is in the community and what housing and services they need, and for us to be able to monitor that.

That was impacted by COVID, but we are on track now with our 60 community entities. Half of them have coordinated access. It is giving us much better data on the impact on those in society and their needs, so we can adjust our programs to be able to service those needs.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

ESDC, go ahead.

[Jean-François Tremblay]

Thank you for your question.

For us, the role is quite limited and simple. We support Infrastructure Canada in some of the aspects of the Reaching Home service program delivery, which means, for example, the relationship with the recipients from the contribution agreement's perspective.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I think that's my time.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Very good. That's your time.

I paused the time when I interrupted you, Mr. Desjarlais, so I would not take your time.

We're turning now to Mr. Aitchison.

Welcome to the committee. You have the floor for five minutes.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's an honour to be here.

Thank you to all the witnesses and to the Auditor General.

My first question is for either representative from the Auditor General's office.

We heard from the CMHC that it follows rigorous and strict governance and accounting principles in the delivery of its mandate. Would you agree with that statement?

[Karen Hogan]

This audit really didn't look at CMHC delivering on its mandate. That would be something we would do in our special examination.

Here, we looked at the management of six projects under the national housing strategy and whether or not they were accountable for the achievement of a key goal in that strategy, which is to reduce chronic homelessness by 50% by 2028.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Would you say that they did not follow rigorous accounting strategies when it came to that particular part of their mandate?

[Karen Hogan]

They definitely track where money is going. They're accountable. They have agreements in place for whom they lend to. They contract the units being built.

However, our main finding was that for tracking the outcomes of who is ultimately housed and whether or not these initiatives have improved the lives of the most vulnerable, they were unable to demonstrate that to us.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you.

My next question would be for ESDC.

I know that the Parliamentary Budget Officer reported that an average of $118 million a year was spent on homelessness programs. That was bumped up to $357 million a year, yet homelessness is on the rise. This speaks to the importance of tracking and accounting for where the money is spent.

Mr. Tremblay, can you explain to us where that money has gone, if homelessness is, in fact, on the rise?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

As I mentioned before, the role that we have is to manage some of the programs on behalf of Infrastructure Canada, so I would defer to my colleague at Infrastructure Canada to explain—as she has done a bit already—where the money is flowing and for what.

[Kelly Gillis]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to acknowledge that of the $1.36 billion, $708 million—and we can account for every dime of it—has gone to emergency measures during COVID for doing things I mentioned in my speech, such as PPE, vaccination clinics and shelters, handwashing facilities, and temporary measures for social distancing so people could have a safe place to sleep. It was really about keeping people safe during the crisis. The top-up during the COVID period was to deal with the health crisis at that particular point in time.

The government has—

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Ms. Gillis, I'll jump in there, if you don't mind.

Reaching Home spent $1.36 billion between 2019 and 2021, which is about 40% of the budget. Why have you spent only 40% of the budget, considering the fact that homelessness in Toronto, for example, is on the rise? It's on the rise in Winnipeg. It's on the rise in every major city. Tent cities are growing literally across this country.

The City of Toronto has reported that 216 homeless people in Toronto died last year. That's 4.2 people per week. Forty people a day, on average, were turned away from homeless shelters in Toronto last year. That's up to 63 people so far this year.

Why did you spend only half the money?

[Kelly Gillis]

This is a nine-year program. Originally it was set at $2.1 billion. It was topped up during COVID to deal with the pandemic and that crisis. The government since, in budget 2022, has continued to increase its support for the homeless community at that doubling level until the end of 2025-26.

It is over half a billion dollars a year to support communities across the country by bringing in a transformational program to support communities, knowing their population and what housing and support needs they have and being able to work with the community to support service and non-profit organizations and provincial and federal governments to provide those supports.

The government doubled its support for Reaching Home during the COVID time period and will extend it past the COVID time period.