Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 29th, 2022

[Romy Bowers]

The significance of the national housing strategy is the focus on housing as a human right. The national housing strategy is constructed to serve the needs of all Canadians, so there are programs to address housing needs across the housing spectrum.

Having said that, there is a recognition that the government has to play a most active role in serving the housing needs of those most in need. When we are developing the programs for the national housing strategy, we ensure that the bulk of our funding—in particular, things like grants and contributions that are non-repayable—is directed toward those non-profit groups and other organizations that help those most in need.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

According to the OAG, the national housing co-investment fund had a measure for affordable housing that was not the same as that of the national housing strategy overall. The result was that the rent for approved housing was often unaffordable for low-income households, many of which belong to priority vulnerable groups.

What steps do you plan to take to harmonize the definitions of housing affordability?

[Romy Bowers]

We use different levels of affordability based on the nature of the program. The co-investment fund provides housing for those most in need, but there's also a concept of funding mixed-use projects—housing projects where there is a range of people with different income levels. In recognition of the varying needs of housing providers, we have some flexibility regarding the affordable housing definition.

We do have sub-targets within the national housing co-investment fund for those most in need. For example, to date, we've funded 3,700 shelters and 1,600 traditional housing units where the affordability that's achieved is very low. We also have housing where there is mixed use, and in those units, we have units that are of very low affordability. Mixed in there are housing units for Canadians who are maybe in the second or third income quintiles, as well.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

CMHC reported that as of March 31, 2022, over $9 billion had been committed to the six initiatives examined by the OAG, and some $4.5 billion had been spent, representing about 30% and 15% of planned expenditures, respectively.

Why is the actual spending such a small share of the planned spending, and how do you plan to correct that issue?

[Romy Bowers]

The national housing strategy is a 10-year program. We have spending targets by year. Our intention is to commit the funding by the end of the program. When you look at the national housing program as a whole, we're about 50% into the execution of the strategy, and we're about 50% in terms of commitment of funds.

I do want to point out that there is a lag between funding and actual occupancy of the housing units. Housing takes a long time to construct, and oftentimes that's what results in the delay in terms of providing information about who is benefiting from those housing units.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Exhibit 5.4 of the report also shows that between 2016 and 2020, the number of people using emergency shelters fell, while the number of shelter users who were chronically homeless rose. How do you explain this discrepancy? Will this result spur a change in the funding strategy, and if so, how?

[Kelly Gillis]

I will answer that question.

During that period of time—during the COVID experience—the shelter capacity was reduced by about 30%, so there weren't as many shelter spaces for people to use. That said, temporary measures were put in place. We had 137,000 people avail themselves of those temporary spaces. There was a reduction in shelter capacity during the pandemic.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Okay.

I believe those are all the questions I have.

Do I have much time left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

No, you have 27 seconds.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Okay, that's fine.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Are you done?

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I'll let the chair decide who gets it.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

To confirm, are you done?

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Yes, I'm finished.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Very good.

It is now 5:33 p.m. There are lots of questions here. We're going to have lightning rounds. We'll have two minutes each for the government and official opposition members, and the Bloc and the NDP will have a minute each. That's two spots for the Liberals at two minutes each, two spots for the Conservatives at two minutes each, and the Bloc and the NDP will each have one spot at a minute each.

Without further ado, I will turn to Mr. McCauley.

You have the floor for two minutes.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Bowers, I want to get back to the comments made by the federal housing advocate. Have you met with Ms. Houle?

[Romy Bowers]

Yes, I've had the privilege of meeting with Ms. Houle. She's a member of the national housing council. I've met with her on four or five occasions.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

You disagree with her comments that the strategy is failing. We're seeing homelessness rise across the country, as stated. There are tent cities, people losing hope, and deaths. Then, of course, we have this horrific report. Our federal housing advocate is saying that the system is failing, but you disagree with that.

[Romy Bowers]

The national—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

You disagree that the strategy is failing, despite what our federal housing advocate, the evidence, and the Auditor General's report say. You don't agree that the strategy is failing.

[Romy Bowers]

The national housing strategy represents the re-entry of the federal government into funding affordable housing. There's been significant progress made in making sure that—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'm sorry. Those are wonderful talking points—

[Romy Bowers]

—non-profit organizations—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

—but you don't agree that the strategy is failing.

Let me ask you about the AG's commentary on the lack of data from CMHC.

I'm looking at your corporate report for 2022-26. The top two items under “How we achieve our strategic results” are specifically around data gathering and using such data to “[i]ntensify our research and analytics, and improve data availability” and to “inspire and influence change”. Yet, the AG comes along with a report that says CMHC is basically doing the opposite.

Why is there a dichotomy between what your strategic report says and reality?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have time for a brief answer.