Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 29th, 2022

[Romy Bowers]

Data is very important to making good housing policy. CMHC is very actively engaged in improving the quality of our data sources. As with many data initiatives, this takes time. We're very committed to making investments over time in order to have the best-quality data to serve Canadians and those most in need.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

I'll turn to Ms. Yip.

You have the floor for two minutes and a few seconds.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is for Ms. Bowers.

Given the transitory nature of homelessness, the people affected are in and out of emergency shelters and other support services. How can data be collected accurately?

[Romy Bowers]

If I may, Mr. Chair, I think DM Gillis may be the best person to answer this specific question, because it's more directly related to homelessness.

[Kelly Gillis]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the question.

We work with community entities and shelters across the country, which provide us with shelter data. We have just received some. The Auditor General rightfully pointed out that, in 2019, we did not get that data. That was because of COVID. As I mentioned before, they changed the capacity, reducing it by about 30%, then increasing it by putting up temporary shelters. We had to change our methodology to capture accurate information.

We are catching up with that. Before the end of this calendar year, we'll be publishing the shelter data for 2020. Soon into 2023, we'll be publishing the data for 2021 and 2022. By the fall of next year, we'll be completely caught up in the cycle of the normal data capture on the homelessness systems across the country.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Is that being captured on placetocallhome.ca?

[Kelly Gillis]

As part of our action plan, we are looking at a more efficient way to capture the data. Right now it comes in different formats from communities and shelters across the country. To do it in a more efficient way, we've actually hired a consultant to look at how we automate it. We provide a free system, called HIFIS, to community entities, which they can use as their case management system. We're looking at that as a way to automate and have more efficient and timely capturing of shelter data information across the country.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That is the time.

If the answer had gone on a few more seconds I would not have cut off the witness, but we just don't have time to get into a whole new round. Another of your members will have two minutes.

Mr. Trudel, you have the floor for one minute.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Bowers, a person who receives social assistance in Quebec gets $765 per month. That is obviously a very vulnerable person.

The minimum rent at this time for a person who obtained an affordable unit under CMHC's programs is $540. That means, in Quebec, that the people with the lowest incomes are unable to pay the lowest affordable rent under CMHC's programs. That really makes no sense. That is why social housing units cost 25 per cent of their income. However, even with that assistance program, it leaves very little money for a person earning $765 per month.

I have two very specific questions to ask you.

Earlier, you have some figures that do not correspond to the ones I have. Do you know how many actual social housing units have been built in Canada in the last year?

Do you know how many social housing units have been built in Quebec in the last year?

[Romy Bowers]

There are approximately 650,000 social housing units across Canada. I don't have the breakout by province, but I'll be able to provide that to you after the committee. My apologies for not having that information.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That's good.

If you could provide that, please, it would be most helpful.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor now for one minute.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'll jump right into it. I would like to quote the Auditor General. She said in her opening remarks, “One of my biggest concerns is the lack of federal accountability for achieving Canada's target to reduce chronic homelessness by half by 2028.” I echo the importance of accountability in this committee.

Second to my point, the national housing advocate uses the word “failing” in her response and audit of the work of CMHC and the national housing strategy. How can I or members of this committee or Canadians be satisfied with the responses provided here today?

I'm not satisfied with the responses the witnesses presented to us today. I believe they're unsatisfactory to the core of the mandate of the Auditor General's report. We didn't hear, in fact, an admission of failure on two accounts in particular, which are data and the actual outcomes.

I have no further questions to ask. I'd just encourage folks to make really certain that they know how important it is to Canadians to end homelessness.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Desjarlais.

We're turning now to Mr. Aitchison.

You have the floor for two minutes.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just have to come back to the situation in this country. We've talked about the housing continuum and the spectrum of housing. From all reports, I think it's safe to say it's in crisis in everything from shelter beds to people trying to buy their first home. Home prices have doubled in this country. The housing affordability gap—that's the average price of a house versus the borrowing capacity of the average household in Canada—is now a whopping 67%. Canadians are spending 64% of their income on their housing. Just before this government took office, that gap was 2%.

The crisis is real. This all seems very bureaucratic. It seems like they're saying that everything is going to be fine and not to worry because they're going to have someone take the lead here shortly and they're going to get this done in another year. All the while, the proof of the failure is not in the reports from the housing advocate. The proof is in the growing tent cities in this country. The proof is in the growing number of homeless people in all our cities. The proof is in the number of people turned away from those shelter beds. The proof is in the number of people literally dying in our streets.

We seem pretty calm and pretty casual about this. It's failing. We've heard it. We can see the results. We simply are not doing enough.

My question, quite simply, to Ms. Bowers would be this: If you're not spending the money that's been allocated, why would you want more? There's a request. You said to Mike Morrice that the solution was—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Please allow an answer.

[Romy Bowers]

As I indicated, we were allocated funding on an annual basis, and we are successful in funding projects as we receive them. There's no question that the nature of the housing crisis in Canada is serious. CMHC is very committed to working with our partners across the federal government, across all levels of government across Canada, and with the private sector and the non-profit sector. In my view, housing is a team sport—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

There's one more round, and it's going to a government member.

Mrs. Shanahan, you have the floor for two minutes.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Chair, it's Mr. Fragiskatos next.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Pardon me.

Mr. Fragiskatos, excuse me.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

There's no problem, Mr. Chair.

I respect and admire, frankly, the passion of colleagues around the table. I know Mr. Aitchison comes from the municipal level, and he's proved an effective MP wrestling with a number of hard issues. I know his sentiment is sincere.

I would put to him, respectfully, that homelessness is a result of many things, but we're not going to deal with it meaningfully when cuts are being called for. I hear my Conservative friends in the House, for example, so frequently target EI and call for, effectively, EI to be cut. It seems a bit rich sometimes when I hear this kind of questioning.

I'll leave that there—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Is that really a point of order?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Genuis, I know where you're going here, but what's good for the goose is good for the gander. You might not like what Mr. Fragiskatos is saying, but it's his time.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I don't mind what he's saying at all. I think it's quite revealing, actually, of what the government—