Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 29th, 2022

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

The bonus structure at the CMHC is predicated on what? Great performance, I'm assuming. How does it work?

[Romy Bowers]

When we're looking at our total compensation, it's based on performance. We also do benchmarking on a regular basis to make sure that our compensation package is aligned with comparators in the private sector as well as the public service.

CMHC has a dual mandate. We provide a competitive insurance product and compete with the private sector for employees. In addition to that, we deliver appropriation-based business. We take that into consideration in determining our compensation structure for employees.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I'm assuming that the insurance part of the business is doing a lot better, considering that we've only spent half of a couple of programs and the housing situation in Canada is getting worse. Can I assume that maybe most of those bonuses went to the insurance side of the business?

[Romy Bowers]

CMHC takes performance measures very seriously. We have a series of internal performance targets that we cascade down to our employees. We ensure that, for example, some of the housing targets I mentioned to you are being met on a regular basis.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

So while tent cities are growing and more homeless people in cities are dying, with the number doubling in the city of Toronto, we have housing officials and bureaucrats getting bonuses of $48 million. How much of the $48 million in bonuses would have gone to the people who are working in the national housing co-investment fund or the new rental construction financing initiative? How much of the $48 million? Would it be half of it or 40%, sort of like the same ratio of the employees involved in those departments?

[Romy Bowers]

I'm sorry, but I don't have that level of granularity available. I can certainly provide that upon request.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

It seems perverse to me. I'm sure it seems perverse to the people who don't have a home and are living in tents. I wonder how much $48 million could buy in tents for places across this country from Vancouver to Charlottetown. I'm frustrated by this. I think that we need to do an awful lot more.

I appreciate the Auditor General's giving us this report, because it has told us that we're not getting the job done. The Parliamentary Budget Officer has told us the job's not getting done. Nobody is accountable, but people are getting bonuses. You can imagine my frustration and the frustration of the people I represent.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Aitchison, you have about 10 seconds left. There were several offers for documents. Do you want to request those documents that were offered? You need to do that. They won't be sent unless you make that request.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I didn't realize I had that time.

Yes, I would like those documents.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

I'm now turning to our next member.

Mr. Fragiskatos, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses today.

I want to begin by asking Ms. Bowers a question relating to something she raised earlier, which was the housing accelerator fund. I ask that in light of the fact—and it is a fact, one that should not escape the attention of this committee—that housing and homelessness are not just the business of the federal government but need to be addressed by all levels of government. This is not to absolve the federal government of its responsibilities, certainly.

Just this past weekend, I listened to two economists. One was from the Smart Prosperity Institute and the other from the C.D. Howe Institute. They outlined how municipal policy and distortions in terms of supply and demand give rise to homelessness. The point was made that you have people driving until they qualify, if I can put it that way. This has been especially the case in southern Ontario and the GTA. The GTA is very expensive in terms of housing. People would go outside of the GTA to find an interest rate that suited them. In turn, those middle-class folks, once they settled in communities, would go into areas and buy up homes. Those homes would be renovated, gentrifying the area. You have the problem of “renovictions” taking shape. That renoviction challenge leads to homelessness in some cases. It's not in all cases, but it can.

Where I'm going with that, Ms. Bowers, is this: How can the housing accelerator fund help to deal with the challenge, specifically on the supply/demand distortions we see in municipalities so that more housing can be built and we can meaningfully address the challenge of homelessness? I do think the municipalities are our partners. I do think that the accelerator fund can help in this regard.

How do you think it can help address what I've just outlined?

[Romy Bowers]

I believe we need to have a healthy housing system as a whole to address homelessness and housing affordability. As I mentioned in my earlier remarks, 95% of the housing in Canada is provided by the private sector. There is a huge demand for housing in Canada, particularly in our large cities. There have been impediments for the private sector to provide the housing that is needed.

The purpose of the accelerator fund is to provide incentives to municipalities and other local actors to clear away some of the barriers for some of those supply responses to take place.

At the federal level, because we have a system that is free market-oriented, this is one way we can use federal fiscal powers to create incentives and changes at the local level.

Housing is a very local problem, and there are unique challenges in cities and communities across Canada. The purpose of the fund is to be flexible enough to provide funding to help local officials and politicians break down local barriers and bring on supply much more quickly than they have in the past.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

I know that municipalities have their share of challenges, of course. In certain communities—my own included, London, Ontario—we're not seeing enough housing being built. When you don't have enough housing being built and you have very high demand, you do have problems that can lead to homelessness. I'm looking forward to the housing accelerator fund. I'm looking forward to seeing how that can help municipalities.

Chair, I want to read one of the key recommendations in the auditor's report. It says that the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation and Infrastructure Canada should “align, coordinate, and integrate their efforts” and “engage with central agencies to clarify accountability”.

I don't know if we'll have time to hear from both. I'll go to Infrastructure Canada, since I already went to Ms. Bowers.

What is being done specifically to better coordinate with CMHC so that this recommendation can be realized?

[Kelly Gillis]

Thank you for the question, Chair.

We have an assistant deputy minister coordinating committee that has been in place—it meets biweekly—as well as working-level meetings among ourselves to make sure that we're coordinating our programs.

Going beyond CMHC and us, CMHC and I met with our housing provincial and territorial colleagues yesterday. We struck a working group on housing and homelessness so we can coordinate our efforts, not just from a federal perspective, but from a provincial and territorial perspective, which is also extremely important, to make sure we are using and leveraging all of the resources that help our communities across the country.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. That was excellent time. You were just a few seconds over.

I appreciate that from you both.

Mr. Trudel, you have the floor now for two and a half minutes, again.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Ms. Gillis, and I would ask her to answer in concrete terms.

We talked about organizations on the ground, such as Réseau Solidarité in Quebec, that work with organizations located more or less all over.

Those organizations submit reports on what is happening or not happening and the number of people they help. What we have learned is that those reports are sent to the Integrated Health and Social Services Centres, the CISSS; in Quebec, it has to go through the ministère de la Santé et des Services sociaux. We have learned that since 2020-2021, the CISSS reports have not been handled by Infrastructure Canada.

As we know, there will be no warming station opening in Montreal's north end, even though there are people who need this during the winter. So the homeless people who warm up at these stations overnight are going to have to spend the night outside.

In Longueuil, La Halte du Coin, a high acceptability threshold resource, is threatening to close on December 24. Last winter, that organization took in 35 people overnight. The lack of funds means that the organization is going to have to close its doors.

I am trying to understand how that works.

This organization is working to reduce homelessness, but it lacks funds. The people who work for that organization help homeless people find overnight shelter.

My question is quite specific: if the reports are not making it to Infrastructure Canada, how can we help these organizations? It is actually Infrastructure Canada that funds these organizations.

[Kelly Gillis]

Mr. Chair, I want to thank the member for his question.

We are working with Quebec, which determines the amount of the funding granted that is allocated to the community. We are also working with the province on the Reaching Home program.

That program needs more money in order to provide services to people in the community who are experiencing homelessness, and that is why we have doubled the funds up to 2025-2026.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

How do you know they need money, since the reports never make it to Infrastructure Canada?

[Kelly Gillis]

During the pandemic, we extended the deadline for reports and outputs. We have now started to receive reports from everywhere in Canada. We are working with Quebec to get the outputs.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Has the auditor...

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Trudel, your speaking time is up. You will probably have another minute of speaking time shortly.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have two and a half minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to emphasize the importance of ensuring that the witnesses understand the purpose of this committee. It's to ensure that we utilize the words of the Auditor General, who's made it very clear in her report that there are systemic failures within CMHC, Infrastructure Canada and ESDC, in particular in the operations of data collection for outcome and co-operation among all three groups.

It's imperative that this committee understands and that the director of CMHC understands that this is truly a measure of accountability for Canadians. We expect far more than the answers we've been receiving today. We expect an admission that's it's important you understand that the Auditor General reports are important to Canadians and that you must heed the advice, not just of this committee, but of course of the Auditor General.

Chronic homelessness was 11.3% higher in 2019-20 than the 2016 baseline. It was just mentioned by CMHC that their plan is to ensure they can incentivize the private market to ensure they are building the supply. We're seeing that their plan is resulting in an increase in homelessness.

Does CMHC think that the private market can continue to be incentivized to build the appropriate number of units, yes or no?

[Romy Bowers]

The private sector cannot provide housing to support those most in need, those at risk of homelessness and those who are most vulnerable. That's the role of government. CMHC has a number of programs that support those Canadians who are most vulnerable.

The role of the private sector is to provide housing for—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

What do you believe the role of public housing is in Canada? Is there sufficient investment to ensure that we have the funds to build public housing? Is there enough money? Do you have enough money?

[Romy Bowers]

The national housing strategy is a very significant development, in that it represents a return of the federal government to investing in public, social housing. It's not about—