Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 2nd, 2023

[Cliff C. Groen]

By no means was I suggesting and trying to deflect that Service Canada does not have a significant role related to the delivery of the fish harvester benefit. It was jointly us and the DFO.

With regard to your specific questions, if you would be so kind as to provide them to us, I certainly would be glad to make sure that we follow up.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I've done that for 18 months. For 18 months I've been going at the CRA, at Fisheries and Oceans Canada and at Service Canada, and I get nothing but bafflegab back that it's somebody else's fault. A simple show of a record of employment—and you guys all nodded when I said record of employment.... Here is one. I can show you many—they're blacked out for privacy reasons—for fishermen: zero, zero, zero, $9,000. That's why they got a special program.

Why don't you use their records of employment to determine their eligibility rather than whether or not they fill out the income line on the income tax box versus the fishing benefit one? These are guys who don't have accountants who are—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Perkins. I'd like to get a brief answer in, please.

[Cliff C. Groen]

Thank you.

As I said, you have my name and my coordinates. By all means, if you would provide those questions, I absolutely will commit that we would get back to you with a direct answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. I appreciate that. As a member from Atlantic Canada, I look forward to that response as well.

Ms. Bradford, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Tremblay, would you say that the benefits were successful overall at targeting the Canadians most affected by the pandemic?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

Yes, I would. You can read it in the Auditor General's report. There are many elements mentioning that.

I think, at the beginning, the objective was to go fast and go to the people who were most in need. If you look at the numbers, it's amazing how it went exactly where it had to go. I'll give you a few examples.

For poverty, without the benefit and with the benefit it's a gap of 5% that is assessed on what it would have been. If you look at individual groups who received the benefit, the groups that we know are marginalized are the ones that got a higher percentage of the benefit. Their population is overrepresented. It's not overrepresented because they should not have received it. It's just because we knew that they were in need. If you look at women, if you look at indigenous people.... If you track where the money went from a geographical perspective and where the high spots of the pandemic were, you can see also that it goes with it.

There's no doubt in my mind that the benefits were efficient for this, because they actually went where we wanted them to go. That's easy to do sometimes. Also, the way the economy came back after the pandemic demonstrated that the benefits were beneficial for society.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you. It was certainly an extraordinary situation calling for extraordinary means.

What lessons do you think we should take from the CRA's experience in delivering CERB and other emergency benefits during a time of crisis? It's always important to learn. What is the learning here?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

I think the learning for us is that we need to continue to build on this. To be honest, we built the airplane as we were starting to fly it.

As the commissioner mentioned, the prepayment measures were not all there. We built them up as we went. We started with CERB and EI, making sure there was a single-window approach and due process going on. I think for us it's amazing how.... What we've learned from this is the capacity to be flexible and to be innovative in times of crisis. We need to keep that.

On the other side, it was mentioned how much time it takes to have data from the past and all this. I think the Auditor General talked about ePayroll and some initiatives in the future. Those are elements—technology and all this—that would be very helpful in making sure that our systems are as flexible and nimble as they should be to address crises when they happen.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Can the CRA officials go into more depth in discussing the flexibilities available to low-income Canadians who have CERB debt? We've heard a lot about collecting the overpayments.

How is the CRA ensuring that it proceeds in an empathetic and compassionate manner, while ensuring that we maintain the integrity of the fiscal system? I know it's quite a delicate balancing act there.

[Bob Hamilton]

Thank you for the question.

Just before I answer that, I'll just tag this on to what Jean-François said. There were a lot of lessons to be learned. Everything wasn't perfect. We actually produced a paper that we gave to the committee and I think ESDC did as well. It's important to learn those lessons. The Auditor General's report is another example of lessons that we can learn. Hopefully we won't have another pandemic like this, but I think there are some good lessons there that we can use.

Talking about the flexibilities, once we determine that somebody was ineligible for the benefit—say, for CERB—we contact that person to tell them that they weren't eligible. If they need help—if they're in financial hardship—then we have an ability not to eliminate the debt but to come up with a payment plan that suits their circumstances. We engage in a discussion with them, trying to be empathetic to whatever financial situation they are in, because we know that if we d try to get all that money right away, it's not going to work.

It is Marc Lemieux and his team who are engaged with the taxpayer. Usually they try to strike that balance between making sure we get the money and being flexible in terms of how and when we get it. We have a fair amount of success with that. We call that our empathetic approach. We were doing it before the pandemic, but it really became important as we moved into this pandemic compliance effort.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have time for a comment but not a question.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I appreciate all of the hard work that all the departments involved have done. I think there were heroic efforts in accomplishing almost an impossible task under very trying circumstances. I thank you all for what you've done.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Ms. Bradford. I appreciate it.

We'll turn now to our next round.

Mr. Kram, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

I would like to start with the Auditor General.

I would like to read a couple of quotes from the bottom of page 32 and the top of page 33 of the report. It says, “During the audit, we were told that Employment and Social Development Canada and the Canada Revenue Agency had identified cases and referred some of them to law enforcement for investigation”. Then a couple of points later, it says, “As of September 2022, the agency and the department had identified employees that claimed COVID-19 benefits.”

Is that to say that CRA and ESDC employees were referred to law enforcement for a criminal investigation?

[Karen Hogan]

There were employees in the Canada Revenue Agency and Employment and Social Development Canada who were identified as having received payments, and there was an internal investigation. That kicked off first. It was then up to the department and the agency as to whether they referred that case to law enforcement. We felt that the investigation was the right first step.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

I guess I will ask the witnesses from the CRA and ESDC how many employees were subject to internal investigation and how many cases were referred to law enforcement.

[Bob Hamilton]

Backing up for one second, at the CRA, we treat public servants as general taxpayers. If you violate the rules, you suffer the compliance efforts.

I don't have numbers right in front of me. There were not very many, obviously. I don't believe any of those cases have gone to a criminal investigation. We have very strong internal investigation at the CRA, and we deal with it ourselves. Discipline can range from not much, if it wasn't something, to termination.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

If I may interject, I appreciate that answer, Mr. Hamilton. Could you provide this committee with the numbers? I'm afraid that “not very many” is not a sufficient answer. Would you be able to provide to this committee the number who were subject to an internal investigation?

[Bob Hamilton]

I will take that back and endeavour to get you those numbers.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

I have the same question for ESDC.

[Mary Crescenzi, Assistant Deputy Minister, Integrity Services Branch, Service Canada, Department of Employment and Social Development]

I would be happy to answer that question.

As part of some of our internal investigations, it was discovered that some of our employees had availed themselves, as any Canadian, of applying for CERB benefits on their own time. I want to make it clear that they did not use any internal systems in doing so. We alerted that up to our chief security officer, and an administrator investigation did take place. With regard to those individuals who broke the trust of the employer-employee relationship—as we reviewed, for cause—their security clearances have been terminated. To date, we have terminated 49 individuals.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Just so I'm clear, 49 now former employees of ESDC were terminated for fraud related to COVID benefits. Is that correct?

[Mary Crescenzi]

It would be in regard to misrepresentation of their situation when they were applying for CERB.