Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 6th, 2023

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I have so many things to say and so little time. It's important to point out some comments with respect to the Auditor General's report that this was a successful program. Not only did we lose a billion dollars, but realistically what we were asking people to do here was keep track of things and distribute a product at a cold temperature. That happens all the time in this world, and I find it very difficult for anyone to say that this was a successful program.

We also had a deal with CanSino. We put all of our eggs in one basket, which everybody here refuses to talk about, but that resulted in a three-month delay in getting vaccines into the arms of Canadians.

It also led to, and I'm not sure why.... Dr. Kochhar, you said this. You were talking about the diligent nature in which we used the COVAX program. Is taking two million doses from a program that was supposed to be able to distribute, first and foremost, vaccines in an equitable fashion to the entire world but then focusing on the developing nations...? We're the only G7 country that took vaccines from the COVAX program. Shame, shame, shame.

I have to say shame on you, Auditor General, for saying that keeping track of things and maintaining temperature is a.... It's not a new science. We didn't do this well, and if we did it the same way again and we lost another billion dollars, and now we're on the hook for at least $4.2 billion of contracts.... We don't even know what we're going to do with this vaccine.

Is this a good use of Canadians' money, a loss of $5 billion? That may even have been able to fund the terrible health care system we now have after eight years of these Liberals.

I'd like to return to Medicago. Very simply, in these Government of Canada documents, the government has poured in probably more than half a billion dollars into Medicago. I have two very simple questions. Number one is, who owns the intellectual property that was developed with Medicago? Secondly, are we also on the hook for 20 million doses that we purchased from Medicago, which again would be just a shoddy $600 million?

Does anybody know the answer to that question, here on this esteemed panel?

[Arianne Reza]

I'll start with your question about Medicago and APA, the 20 million firm doses. This is under active negotiation as we speak, given the news from Medicago and the need for the public health sector to reduce that delivery.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

I'm not clear, Mr. Chair. Are you telling me that we're trying to negotiate our way out of a $600-million contract?

[Arianne Reza]

Mr. Chair, I'm saying that with the recent news from Mitsubishi and Medicago, coupled with the demand and our constant review of contracts, there are active negotiations going on right now looking at the 20 million doses and what can be done to adjust it.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Okay. Thank you, I think.

Mr. Chair, does anybody want to answer the IP question? Who owns the IP now? Is it Mitsubishi Tanabe that now owns it? The Government of Canada, as I said, pumped almost a billion dollars into this company. Who owns the IP?

[Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar]

Mr. Chair, this is something that is in active conversation between the company and ISED, who are the key interlocutors between the Government of Canada and the industry. That conversation is going on as such in terms of those details.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You had an open question.

Dr. Lucas, did you have something to add there as well? I know you went to your mike. You can say no, and that's no problem, but I wanted to give you the opportunity.

[Dr. Stephen Lucas]

No, on the specific one, but I think it's important to note for the record that based on the world-leading experts on the vaccine task force, purchase agreements were put in place, vaccines were authorized, and doses delivered to Canadians within days of any other country in the world, and we had the single highest level of primary dose vaccination in the G7, saving hundreds of thousands of —

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

It's back to you, Doctor.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

I would point out to you a BBC article in February 2021 that said we were the worst in the world. That was in the early days. We had the delta variant then, when many of us on the front line thought we were going to die, and guess what happened? Our country teamed up with a Chinese company to put all of our eggs in one basket in a company called CanSino, which now we don't even want to talk about. It's shameful.

Finally, the Medicago fiasco needs to be solved, and I'll leave it at that, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. That was spot-on for time. I thought I would have to rein you in.

Mrs. Shanahan, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I'd like to express my extreme disappointment in some of the words used by the member who just spoke. This is a committee that prides itself....

Mr. Chair, I would like you to speak up the next time a member disparages the witnesses who appear in front of us, especially the Auditor General. The integrity of the Auditor General is something we all hold—

[An hon. member]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I call for order.

I try not to interrupt members.

Mrs. Shanahan has the floor. The government's been respectful of opposition members. I'd ask that the same be true now.

It's back to you, Mrs. Shanahan.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is the work we are here to do: to look at what happened, learn lessons and understand how we can do better, next time. Quite frankly, the hundreds of thousands of lives that were saved are, to me, successes.

I'd like to turn the microphone over to the Auditor General. Please tell us more about your investigation and what you found for this report.

[Karen Hogan]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My comments, earlier on, were about the efficiency of procurement and ensuring that every Canadian who wanted to be vaccinated could be. There are always two sides to every coin and, obviously, things that needed to be done better.

The lack of data-sharing agreements with the provinces and territories—which have existed since 1999—is a concern this country needs to address. It requires all levels of government to come together, in order to ensure we know what health data information should be shared, when it should be shared and how it should be shared, and also have the IT infrastructure behind it. There are absolutely a lot of good lessons to be learned, and also a lot of important successes that should be recognized, which is what our report did. It was very balanced in looking at both angles.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for this time to address our report.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you.

Some things that have come up here a number of times—it's part of the public accounts committee's job to look at these, certainly—are value for money, wastage and so on.

Auditor General, you said some wastage was to be expected. We're looking at an emergency situation. What kinds of information, basis or guidelines do we have? What percentage of wastage can be expected? If we're in a war and win that war, are we then looking at the number of bullets we used and saying, “Well, maybe we used too many bullets”? What is the context in this emergency situation?

[Karen Hogan]

Unfortunately, I don't have that. Perhaps one of the other witnesses from the health industry can add to that. What I can offer up is this: Vaccines can be wasted for many reasons. They could expire on a shelf. Once a vial is opened, it might not all be used. There is wastage in transportation. There are lots of reasons.

With that, I'll see whether someone from one of the departments can provide a more specific answer to that.

[Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar]

Mr. Chair, I'll attempt to clarify that wastage is inevitable in any immunization program. When we initially started the vaccination campaign, the unavoidable wastage was around 3%. Basically, when you open the vial, you have to use it within a 24-hour time period, or it cannot be stored, etc.

As we moved further into our vaccination campaign, demand decreased. There were some other factors that meant that, from a wastage perspective, there was increased waste. In reality, what happened was that there were times when we had vaccines that were very complex, early in the rollout. As I said, you have to thaw them and you have a limited time period in which to use them. Also, as we moved on to other vaccines, stability data became more...such that we were able to say, “This vaccine could be used in nine months.” For example, Health Canada authorized an increase in the shelf life based on what was presented to them, so we continued to plan according to the nine-month....

There were multiple factors that happened: cold chain excursions, puncturing of the vial, or inability to store at a particular temperature. Those were multiple factors that contributed to wastage, which is unavoidable.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. That is the time.

I did pause the clock when I spoke as well, Ms. Shanahan.

Turning now to Mr. McCauley, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Witnesses, thank you for being here today.

It's nice to see my Liberal colleagues stand up for the AG after refusing to stand up when the Minister of National Revenue attacked her repeatedly publicly in the House of Commons.

Dr. Kochhar, I have a couple of quick questions for you. You mentioned the shelf life was extended on some of these drugs. How are we extending them? Is it just science saying, “Oh, wait a moment; this is just a best before date”?

[Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar]

I'll pass—

[Dr. Stephen Lucas]

I think Dr. Lourenco can speak to it.

[Dr. Celia Lourenco, Acting Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Products and Food Branch, Department of Health]

The vaccines are initially authorized with a certain shelf life, and the manufacturer provides additional data for us to be able to extend the shelf life.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

She mentioned as well about Canada's being an early leader in acquiring vaccine. I'm looking at data from February 21, when 3% of Canadians had the vaccine compared with 21% in the U.K. and 14% in the U.S. In what way were we an early leader?

We've seen reports. It was during the worst of times that daily in the National Post they were publishing where we were on the list of vaccines. Yes, we preacquired tons, enough for everyone, but in what way were we an early acquirer when we did not catch up to the U.S., the U.K., Israel and Japan until months later?