Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 13th, 2023

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Thompson, would you like to answer the question as well?

[Paul Thompson]

On the infrastructure side, this isn't an area of significant activity for PSPC. Our main focus is on the vessels—supporting the Coast Guard in the acquisition and construction of the Arctic offshore patrol ships 7 and 8 and working on the vessel life extension of the existing fleets. Our focus is very much on the fleet support and getting the vessels that are needed to protect the Arctic.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

Going back to Ms. Gibbons, we've heard a lot about climate change and its impact in the Arctic, the melting glaciers and so forth. It must have an impact on marine life there. With the ship traffic increasing, I'm sure that's impacted the waters as well.

How is the department addressing the increased risk of marine pollution?

[Annette Gibbons]

I would say that we're doing a number of different things. In the department generally, we are incorporating into our science assessments the range of science-related activities both in fisheries management and in ocean ecosystems conservation and protection. We are incorporating climate-related analysis much more integrally in that work on an ongoing basis, and that would include what we do in the Arctic.

The expanded presence of the Coast Guard, as we bring on the new fleet and we're able to have an even greater presence of vessels in the north year-round, will also be something that allows us to deal better with increasing ship traffic.

There are a lot of different activities that are under way, I would say.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I don't have a lot of time, but you mentioned in your opening remarks the Arctic maritime security strategy. Perhaps you can give a quick update, or maybe somebody else can finish asking that question.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I will come back to it, if that's okay, Ms. Yip.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Yes, that's fine.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

It will ensure that we all have a full last round.

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to start out by tabling a motion, a copy of which has already been distributed to committee members.

I will read out the motion slowly so that everyone can hear.

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee undertake a study of the contracts between Public Services and Procurement Canada with Moderna, Sanofi, Pfizer, Medicago, AstraZeneca, Johnson & Johnson and Novavax for the supply of COVID‑19 vaccines (Auditor General's Reports 9 and 10); That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(1), the committee order Public Services and Procurement Canada to produce a copy of each of the said contracts by forwarding them to the clerk of the committee within 15 days of the adoption of this motion, provided that they're free of any redactions; That, when these documents are received by the clerk: a. They be available at the clerk's office for viewing by committee members only, for one day to be designated by the committee no later than 15 days following the receipt of the contracts, under the supervision of the clerk and that no personal mobile or electronic devices be permitted in the room that day; b. Representatives of Public Services and Procurement Canada be invited to appear for a two‑hour in camera meeting and that during the meeting, only Committee members and support staff required for the meeting be permitted to attend and that no personal mobile or electronic devices be permitted in the room during the meeting; that, during the meeting, numbered paper copies of the documents be given to committee members who are present in person by the clerk at the beginning of the said meeting and that these copies be returned to the clerk at the end of the meeting and that the clerk be instructed to destroy the said copies.

Given that this motion has already been distributed in both of Canada's official languages, I would like to continue our meeting today and, if possible, talk about the motion later on.

This motion has been presented in good faith, and I trust there is no reason to prevent a debate on it.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much for tabling the motion.

I stopped the clock while you presented it.

You still have six minutes remaining.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being here with us.

I'm going to ask some questions on “Report 6, Arctic Waters Surveillance, 2022”.

This question is for the representatives from the Office of the Auditor General.

In 2021, you published a report on the national shipbuilding strategy. You observed that the strategy had not delivered the ships that Canada needed to meet its domestic and international obligations.

How are the problems you underlined in your audit on the national shipbuilding strategy linked to those that are highlighted in your report on Arctic surveillance?

[Andrew Hayes]

Thank you.

The ships covered by the strategy are the same ones that are dealt with in our report. The timeframe that would allow us to get these ships before the end of their useful life of our current ships is very tight.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Right.

The ships that are patrolling in the Arctic are old and coming to the end of their useful life cycle, which could limit our capacity to ensure surveillance in the Arctic.

Could these problems have been avoided with a better national shipbuilding strategy?

[Andrew Hayes]

I would say so. The strategy has had delays, and now there are problems and shortcomings that must be dealt with so that Canada can have a full surveillance picture of its Arctic waters.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Can you give us some of the more egregious examples of the strategy's shortcomings?

[Andrew Hayes]

I will ask my colleague, Mr. Swales, to answer your question.

[Nicholas Swales, Principal, Office of the Auditor General]

In our 2021 report, we noted that the tools needed to manage risk and oversee the production schedule for the ships were not necessarily fit for purpose.

That was part of our recommendations to remedy the situation.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Are you satisfied with the action plan that was developed following the report?

Another report was published by the Office of the Auditor General, the OAG. Have you seen any improvement, at the very least in terms of implementing the action plan or overseeing the production schedule for the ships?

[Nicholas Swales]

What we have noted in our second report is that the situation has actually gotten worse in some instances. That means that the action plan had not produced the expected results. Some measures had still not been implemented. Work remains to be done.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I will ask one more question on that issue, whether it be for Mr. Swales or Mr. Hayes.

Who is responsible for the shortcomings in the action plan? Would it be Fisheries and Oceans Canada or Public Works and Government Services Canada?

[Nicholas Swales]

I think all the departments that are part of the national shipbuilding strategy are responsible. The strategy includes four main departments. They have to work together to ensure that the strategy is producing the right results.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I am counting on your expertise here. We know very well that if we want a job done right, someone has to be responsible. In your opinion, who should be responsible for tasks such as overseeing the production schedule, for example?

[Andrew Hayes]

I would say that the Department of Public Works and Government Services could be responsible for this task, because it could manage the turnaround times and the other deliverables.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

My questions are now for the representatives from the Department of Public Works and Government Services.

What do you have to say about the action plan and the improvements that have been awaited for nearly two years now?

[Paul Thompson]

Thank you for the question.

As I have already mentioned, we are working on many fronts to speed up the work on the ships.

We have contracts in place now for engineering and design for the Arctic and offshore patrol ships, so those are contracted and on a revised schedule. We see each of these ships being produced at a diminishing unit cost and with less time.

In the fall, we also awarded a construction and engineering contract with the Vancouver shipyard for the initial work on the polar icebreaker. It will be our intention to have the second polar icebreaker, as well as the six program icebreakers, into the work immediately following the umbrella agreement with Chantier Davie.

There are many contractual elements, as well as additional measures we are taking on the management side to have a better handle on risk and on adherence to schedule. Those are two tracks for it.