Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 13th, 2023

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

Still with recommendation 1, the response reads, “National Defence, Transport Canada, and Fisheries and Oceans Canada and the Canadian Coast Guard will continue taking steps to reduce gaps in Arctic maritime domain awareness and limitations of existing surveillance capabilities”.

What exactly is being done, in summary, to reduce those gaps? What would you highlight? What would you point to?

[Mario Pelletier]

As I mentioned earlier, the expansion of the Coast Guard Auxiliary is one step to that, as is the introduction of the Arctic offshore patrol vessels up in the Arctic. That will allow me to deploy ships where they are most needed and make sure that we have proper coverage at the same time.

As we know where the AOPS are going to be, we can redeploy our ships to other areas that perhaps have reduced coverage.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

This work is obviously ongoing. What can you say about the progress being made?

[Mario Pelletier]

We have a really good relationship with the navy. We're meeting a few weeks from now for our annual staff meeting. Basically, we have a concept of operations for joint operations in the Arctic. The annual meeting is to review it and update it as required, but we're working hand in hand with the navy.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I understand “hand in hand”, but what does that look like in concrete terms? How often are you engaged? This sounds like a meeting after some time, the way you phrase it.

[Mario Pelletier]

No, our regional assistant commissioner up north is in the building in Yellowknife next to the JFT north, joint task force north, where our respective assets are. I have regular meetings with CJOC here in Ottawa as well. There are meetings at all levels of the organization on a regular basis.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

The chair tells me I have one minute, so I'll stick to that.

One year from now, with respect to both recommendations, where do you think we will be? I know you can't inherently predict, obviously, but where do you think we will be in terms of fulfilling these recommendations?

[Mario Pelletier]

Well, I think we're not going to get a program icebreaker a year from now. I think the delivery date is scheduled for 2030, so we'll continue to progress on the construction and the negotiation with the shipyard on shipbuilding.

On the MDA, I think we're making huge progress. I'd say that 10 or 15 years ago we were one of the world leaders in e-navigation. We dialed that back due to reductions, but with the investment we've received through the OPP and so on, we're really ramping up our ability and our participation in international forums, which allows us to have a better understanding and knowledge of marine domain awareness.

We're also collaborating with many other countries, like Denmark, Norway and so on, so we are exchanging expertise with each other and benefiting from it.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much, Commissioner.

For our last round, Mr. McCauley, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Pelletier, I realize you haven't received your AOPS yet, but during what period can they patrol up north, in the Arctic?

[Mario Pelletier]

The feedback we have received from the navy is that they are much more efficient than expected. Typically we're up north from mid-June to the end of November, so I expect during that period we would be able to be there.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

What happens from November to June? What replaces those AOPS, or what is the intent?

[Mario Pelletier]

We deploy six or seven ships every year in the Arctic. We actually had up to nine during COVID. At the end of November, when the ships come back from the Arctic, there's basically no more commercial traffic. Transport Canada regulates certain zones of the Arctic. Certain zones are closed to commercial traffic, so there's no marine activity beyond the end of November. This year we came back the first week of December.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Okay.

In 2030, we hope to have the Diefenbaker in the water, but we've seen delay after delay. I'm not a betting person, but I would take a bet that this one will not be ready by 2030. What would be the consequences? What will we have operating? I don't think our other major icebreakers are going to be operational that late.

[Mario Pelletier]

The two polar icebreakers.... First of all, there are two, not one—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Yes, but the second one we haven't even signed for, so we're just talking about the first one, coming out of Seaspan in 2030.

[Mario Pelletier]

We're doubling up on the design work. We want to make sure we have a complete design package before we go into construction. Everything is lining up to start construction, to cut steel, in 2025.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Assuming 2030 doesn't happen, because we haven't seen anything on time with this program, what is your backup?

[Mario Pelletier]

We're confident that it will happen. If it doesn't, as we get closer to 2025, we'll be able to assess whether there's some slippage and come up with some interim measures, such as the ones we have in place right now. They worked well, with the three Swedish medium icebreakers and with the light icebreaker. If we need to look at more interim measures, we will.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Are the three Swedish ones all operational?

[Mario Pelletier]

Yes, sir.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

What was the final cost to renovate and work on those? Maybe either you or PSPC can get back to the committee on that, if you don't mind.

[Mario Pelletier]

Yes, the project cost was $850 million, if I remember well, but we can give you—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

You can get back to us.

Maybe Mr. Thompson or Mr. Page can answer this. With respect to the naval AOPS, there were some well-publicized issues with water but also with the diesel generators. What is the cost going to be for that, and what steps have been taken to ensure it doesn't happen on subsequent ships?

[Paul Thompson]

Thank you for that question.

The overall program costs for AOPS one to six are approximately $5 billion—