Public Accounts Committee on March 6th, 2023

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Good morning. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 51 of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee is meeting today to continue its study on “Report 6: Arctic Waters Surveillance” of the 2022 reports five to eight of the Auditor General of Canada to the Parliament of Canada.

The chair has asked that we move other business to another time. Do we have unanimous consent to use the full meeting for this study?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

I would now like to welcome our witnesses.

From the Office of the Auditor General, we have Andrew Hayes, deputy auditor general, and Nicholas Swales, principal. From the Department of Transport, we have Arun Thangaraj, deputy minister, and Lisa Setlakwe, assistant deputy minister, safety and security. From the Department of National Defence, we have Bill Matthews, deputy minister; Nancy Tremblay, associate assistant deputy minister, material; Rob Chambers, assistant deputy minister, infrastructure and environment; and Rear-Admiral Steven Waddell, deputy commander, Royal Canadian Navy. From the Department of the Environment, we have Chris Forbes, deputy minister, and Ken Macdonald, executive director, national programs and business development, prediction services directorate, meteorological service of Canada.

That's a full house. Thank you.

Mr. Hayes, you already made your opening remarks at the last meeting. We will then go to Deputy Minister Thangaraj for five minutes.

Go ahead, please. You have the floor.

[Arun Thangaraj, Deputy Minister, Department of Transport]

Thank you, Madam Chair, for inviting us to be here with you this morning.

As the new deputy minister of transport, marine safety and security of Canada's Arctic waters is one of my top priorities.

The Government of Canada agrees with the findings and recommendations in the Auditor General's report related to the surveillance of Arctic waters and will take steps to address them.

Canada's maritime domain awareness in the Arctic is critical to ensuring the country can mitigate risks and respond to incidents that may impact our security, safety, environment and economy.

Transport Canada is working with our partners, including Inuit and indigenous communities, Arctic residents and industry, to address long-standing gaps in the Arctic maritime domain awareness, particularly the continuous tracking of vessels, identification of non-emitting vessels and the improvement of information sharing to ensure our Arctic waters are safe and secure.

In July, the Prime Minister announced an additional $2-billion investment into Canada's oceans protection plan, bringing the total investment to $3.5 billion. Under this plan, Canada is working together with indigenous peoples, stakeholders, coastal communities, and provinces and territories. The Government of Canada is working with them to strengthen protections for our coasts and wildlife, improving maritime traffic and incident management, and advancing partnerships with indigenous communities.

With respect to the specific points raised by the Auditor General, Transport Canada leads the interdepartmental marine security working group, which has updated Canada's maritime security framework. This will be finalized before the end of this month. This will enable a coordinated approach to address a range of maritime security challenges and priorities, including strategies dealing with both maritime domain awareness and Arctic maritime security.

Transport Canada is also reviewing legislation and regulations to address potential gaps and to ensure that the marine transportation security framework continues to address modern threats and risks to the marine transportation system.

As part of the marine security operation centre third party review, which was launched in December 2022, we are working with our partners to incorporate measures to identify gaps in monitoring, assessing and reporting on maritime domain awareness, and the way forward on operational flexibility, options and tools.

These centres are a unique example of multiagency integration and collaboration. To support that awareness and Canada's federal presence in the Arctic, the Government of Canada will continue to work with its partners to provide the equipment, infrastructure, assets and capabilities necessary to support our maritime security interests in the region.

We are improving key equipment used for maritime surveillance by pursuing options for acquiring equipment in a timelier manner and developing contingency plans to address the risk posed by critical equipment failure.

Regarding Transport Canada's air asset capacity, the department currently dedicates the Dash 7 maritime patrol aircraft to performing surveillance in the Arctic during the shipping season. Sensors on this aircraft enable the detection, classification and tracking of vessels of interest and marine oil spills. The Vancouver-based Dash 8 is also used, as required, to conduct surveillance in the western Arctic. To improve aircraft state of readiness, Transport Canada has acquired a substantial inventory of Dash 7 parts, in order to reduce the time the aircraft may be out of service.

The department, in co-operation with the Canadian Coast Guard, is also conducting a review of its aircraft services directorate to determine where efficiencies can be made, including recommendations for the future replacement of the Dash 7 aircraft.

The department has also procured a remotely piloted aircraft system, delivery of which is expected this summer, to augment its surveillance capacity in the Arctic and is progressing with the construction of a Transport Canada hangar in Iqaluit which will support the whole of government. This facility will support aircraft maintenance and allow for the possibility of extending Arctic surveillance operations into spring, late fall and winter.

Canada's Arctic waters surveillance is critical to ensuring the country can mitigate risks and respond to incidents that may impact our security, safety, environment and economy.

We look forward to working with our partners on these next steps.

If the committee has any questions, I would be more than pleased to answer them. Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you, Deputy Minister Thangaraj.

We will now move on to Deputy Minister Bill Matthews for five minutes.

[Bill Matthews, Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to begin by saying hello to all the committee members.

As you mentioned earlier, I am joined by a few of my counterparts from other departments.

I will offer some very brief opening remarks, in order to leave maximum time for questions.

The Auditor General's report clearly identifies where departments need to collaborate more effectively on Arctic waters surveillance. National Defence welcomes those observations and agrees. Defence is directly implicated in both recommendations one and two of the Auditor General's report. The department fully agrees with both recommendations and has developed corresponding management action plans for each. I will stress that some of this work is complicated and multi-year in nature.

If you wish to get into some of the details of those action plans, I would be happy to do so with the help of my colleagues, as appropriate.

I will stop here so that we have enough time to answer your questions. In any event, it's a pleasure for me to be here.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you.

We will now move on to Deputy Minister Chris Forbes for five minutes.

[Chris Forbes, Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm happy to be here today with the committee to discuss report six of the Auditor General. This focuses on water surveillance in the Arctic, obviously.

We are one of the five organizations identified in the scope of the audit. We are not directly involved in traffic monitoring, but we obviously play an active operational role in supporting transportation in the Arctic.

We have offices and staff in all three territorial capitals, and we provide support in smaller and more remote communities, such as Fort Smith, Resolute Bay and Inuvik. We deliver programs and initiatives across the north, most notably—probably—in areas such as weather prediction, nature conservation and protection, biodiversity, and climate change and adaptation.

Our work also focuses a lot on reconciliation—a significant priority for the department—as well as research monitoring and international Arctic co-operation. As an example, the meteorological service of Canada monitors weather and ice conditions, uses world-leading computer models to predict the evolution of these conditions and provides services that support Canadians and Canada's sovereignty in the Arctic.

Data from these networks underpin the accurate and timely weather forecasts and warnings available to Canadians. This includes daily marine weather forecasts for the navigable waters of Canadian territory as well as marine weather and ice information for a broad area of international waters north of 60 degrees.

The data also feeds into specialized weather forecasts and information that are provided to the Canadian Armed Forces on an ongoing basis, domestically and internationally, and include mission support for the Arctic offshore patrol ships when they are in the Arctic.

There's also the Canadian ice service from Environment and Climate Change Canada's meteorological service of Canada. It has specialized expertise in monitoring sea‑ice and icebergs, ice detection and modelling. It also provides operational support for maritime activities seven days a week to help ensure safe ice operations. This includes direct support to Canadian Coast Guard and Royal Canadian Navy operations.

With longer and more widespread ice‑free conditions in the ocean, and sea‑ice decline, in some areas, as high as 20% per decade, it's a critical service.

In addition, the department's expertise in the north also supports our work to sustain Canada's northern water resources and freshwater ecosystems.

I'm going to stop here. At this time, I'm happy to take questions from members of the committee.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you very much for your remarks.

I'm very much looking forward to hearing the questions and answers today on such an important topic.

For our first round of six minutes, we begin with Mr. Zimmer.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks to our witnesses, especially for the Auditor General's report and the very good work done by your department.

I'll begin with a quote from the Nunatsiaq News on August 5, 2015, which reads:

Russia is seeking to expand its Arctic territory—by 1.2 million square kilometres in the resource-rich Arctic waters around the North Pole.

That’s the gist of Russia’s new submission to the United Nations for the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, which claims “the seabed and its subsoil in the central Arctic Ocean which is natural prolongation of the Russian land territory.”

Yes, that was eight years ago now, but this is from Mr. Putin just a month ago, in a Reuters article from Moscow on January 27, 2023. It said:

President Vladimir Putin held talks on Friday with top security officials about the status of Russia's efforts to legally expand the outer boundaries of its continental shelf in the Arctic Ocean.

Russia in 2021 filed a submission to the United Nations seeking to redefine its continental shelf, which is believed to contain vast untapped reservoirs of oil and gas. Moscow said at the time it wanted much more Arctic seabed, a move that has implications for Canada and Denmark who have their own claims.

Putin is a very real and present threat to our Canadian Arctic security and sovereignty.

I asked Minister Anand specifically about Arctic sovereignty on May 3, 2022. My question to her was:

Mr. Speaker, the NDP-Liberal budget proves once again that the current government is all talk and no action. Instead of a plan to protect our Arctic sovereignty and security, all we got was a reannouncement of NORAD's existing infrastructure and that the government is considering its options.

We heard that again today. My question continued:

Our Arctic sovereignty and security cannot be protected by more Liberal empty promises. Will the minister, who continues to fail to defend our north, stand up and explain?

Her answer was:

Mr. Speaker, Canada's sovereignty in the Arctic is secure....

Her answer went on, but still, that's her premise.

From the Auditor General's report, we're clearly not anywhere near having a secure Arctic. I'll go to the recommendations in the report. Recommendation 6.12 on page 7 reads:

Overall, the federal government has not taken the required action to address long-standing gaps affecting its surveillance of Canada’s Arctic waters. As a result, the federal organizations that are responsible for safety and security in the Arctic region do not have a full awareness of maritime activities in Arctic waters and are not ready to respond to increased surveillance requirements.

I'll go on to 6.13, the section below, which reads:

The long-standing issues include incomplete surveillance, insufficient data about vessel traffic in Canada’s Arctic waters, poor means of sharing information on maritime traffic, and outdated equipment. The renewal of vessels, aircraft, satellites, and infrastructure that support monitoring maritime traffic and responding to safety and security incidents has fallen behind to the point where some will likely cease to operate before they can be replaced. For example, the Canadian Coast Guard and Transport Canada risk losing presence in Arctic waters as their aging icebreakers and patrol aircraft near the end of their service lives and are likely to be retired before a new fleet can be launched.

We are hardly in a good place in the Arctic, despite the minister's wanting to reassure us that we're good.

I'll ask the DMs from defence, transport and environment to please respond.

[Arun Thangaraj]

Sure. I'll start.

The report identifies gaps, and there have been actions taken within the department to address those gaps, firstly with respect to situational awareness and the information sharing, as well as on the aircraft, as you stated.

First, with respect to some of the gaps, one of the first actions of the department was reviewing the working group. There have been changes to the working group and how it operates to make it more nimble and responsive and to identify where those gaps are. As the audit noted, the framework was old and outdated, so that working group has met and the revised framework will be approved by the end of this month.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

With respect, deputy minister, that sounds like a lot of talk and no action. That's exactly what I accused the minister of.

Can we move to Mr. Matthews? I know my time is limited.

[Bill Matthews]

Certainly. There are a couple of points. One, I would distinguish between issues around lack of awareness, which is what the Auditor General's report highlights, versus ongoing legal claims made by Russia in terms of land ownership or mineral rights, etc.

In terms of closing gaps around awareness, the work we are advancing is twofold. Number one, we are looking at Arctic offshore patrol ships' new capability, and there are three more coming there. However, information sharing is also critical. The OAG report flags that some vessels self-report. Others, smaller vessels, are under no obligation to do so. There are multiple departments, including the Coast Guard, which is not here today, which work together to build that picture.

My colleague just flagged the information sharing—

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Maybe, Mr. Matthews, just let me—

[Bill Matthews]

It's that information sharing around those smaller vessels that's critical.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I appreciate some of the efforts that are being done. I've seen the AOPS, some of the ships. I have actually been up there to see some of the icebreakers in action. I applaud our Coast Guard in their efforts up there. They're working hard for us.

Frankly, it doesn't say how we are going to fill the gaps that are clearly laid out in the Auditor General's report. You haven't answered that. You've talked about what's already being done, but you haven't addressed the gaps.

Let's move to the other deputy minister—

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

I'm sorry. You'll have to save your questions for the next round.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Okay. Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you.

We now move on to Ms. Bradford for six minutes.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses today. We certainly have a full house. It's great to see everybody here in person. Thank you for being here for this important meeting.

I'm going to start with the Auditor General's report. The recommendation in paragraph 6.36 states:

National Defence, Transport Canada, Fisheries and Oceans Canada, and the Canadian Coast Guard, working together, should take concrete actions to address the long-standing gaps in Arctic maritime domain awareness....

I was wondering if you could please elaborate. What are some of the barriers to information sharing? Do they stem from lack of data, research or sound policy analysis?

[Andrew Hayes, Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General]

Thank you.

One of the areas where we identified challenges in information sharing was with the working group. While there are various departments on that working group, we identified governance and information-sharing realities that can be improved. I think it might be open for the deputy minister to speak to what they are doing to fill some of those gaps. These have been identified through reviews over the course of a number of years.

[Lisa Setlakwe, Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport]

I can respond to that. Thank you.

Part of it is governance, as has just been indicated, and having clearer lines of communication and protocols. Part of it is data—you've already alluded to that—and making sure we are collecting the data and that it is going into systems that people can access. In some cases there are legislative impediments to our being able to share information between each other, and we are working to remove some of those barriers.

I would say there is a very close collaborative relationship that exists domestically as well as internationally. I just left a meeting this morning with our Five Eyes partners where we are, in fact, tackling some of these questions and trying to get better at managing the data, sharing it and using it to be more responsive, nimble and agile to deal with situations that may emerge.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you.

Staying with the Department of Transport, I understand that Transport Canada is in the process of procuring a remotely piloted aircraft system, which is scheduled for delivery in early 2023. Can you provide an update on this? How will the RPAS augment Transport Canada's surveillance capacity in the Arctic?

[Arun Thangaraj]

We are concluding the process of procuring that. We should take delivery later this year. Once we have procurement, there is work we need to do to equip it with the sensors we currently have on the Dash 7 aircraft.

The RPAS will provide a complement to aerial surveillance. There are fewer restrictions in terms of the number of hours an RPAS can fly compared with a manned aircraft. With the cameras, we'll have the same level of fidelity of information and, again, we'll be able to augment the coverage we have with our existing aircraft.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Continuing along the line with the Dash 7 aircraft, what work is being undertaken to ensure they're well maintained and operational?