Public Accounts Committee on March 6th, 2023

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you very much.

We now move to Mr. Fragiskatos for five minutes.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for appearing today.

Mr. Hayes, one of the findings, if not the key finding of the audit is that there have been “long-standing gaps in the surveillance of Arctic waters”. How far back would you say that goes?

[Andrew Hayes]

It goes back at least 10 years. We identified that there were long-standing known issues. There might have been gaps before that, but the known issues are at least 10 years old.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Okay. This is something that governments share responsibility for—not one single government.

Would you say that's a fair statement?

[Andrew Hayes]

I can't comment on what governments were involved, but we did identify that the working group, for example, had identified what we're calling “long-standing issues” now, because they've been known for a long period of time.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

You said, “10 years”, so maybe that answers the question.

In any case, I did want to ask Transport Canada for more information on drones and the use of drones in terms of how security evolves and what states are doing to take advantage of technological change to ensure their security.

Talk to me about drones as they relate to the Arctic, obviously.

[Arun Thangaraj]

As mentioned before, our remotely piloted aircraft enhances our ability to do Arctic surveillance. They're equipped with all of the cameras and monitoring technology that currently exist on Dash 7s, but what they also enable us to do is live data streaming and a better mapping capability than otherwise.

With respect to the security of drones, this has been a focus of the department for a number of years through our regulatory initiatives. Transport Canada—and Canada—has been a leader in terms of the regulation and safety and security of drone technology to ensure that they are free from nefarious uses and interception. The technology and how they're used is regulated and governed by what we do at Transport Canada.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

The audit also talks about partnership. It mentions specifically the work that is being carried out with local communities and indigenous communities.

Could you shed light for committee members on the nature of that work, what it involves and what engagement looks like?

[Arun Thangaraj]

There are two components of that, and they're a result of the oceans protection program.

The first is what's called enhanced maritime situational awareness. It's an initiative that was codeveloped with indigenous partners and is improving our overall domain awareness for coastal communities and indigenous communities. It involves real-time, live-vessel traffic information and other environmental data to look at what the maritime environment is doing. Various partners are using this to look at traffic patterns, to track icebreakers, to record various observations during the open water season and to monitor fuel, for example.

There's also the proactive vessel management initiative, where we have partnered with Arctic communities to address marine shipping concerns through their waterways in Inuvik and Cambridge Bay. We're working with these communities on cruise ship management, safety on the ice, vessel speed limits and mapping safe harbours and places of refuge in the event that they're required.

With both, we rely heavily on local knowledge and the expertise of those who live, work and hunt in the region.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I have limited time, but I do want to delve a little more into that particular issue, because I think it's so important and is perhaps an underemphasized aspect of this entire issue.

Whether it's Transport Canada or the Department of National Defence working in partnership, have there been efforts to look at what other democracies that have an interest in the Arctic are doing to engage local communities in their respective countries as an attempt to learn what we can do better?

[Lisa Setlakwe]

As I indicated earlier, we have a number of international collaborations and we are exchanging best practices. I would say that Canada actually is a leader in how it engages in particular the EMSA that you've just referenced.

The development and the implementation of this project have actually been very much led by our indigenous partners. They have weekly meetings on the platform, and we are getting real-time input on how to improve the platform. Then we're turning around and tasking that out to our supplier to make the improvements. Our partners in the north are able to plan around the knowledge they have. Whether it's the hunting season or trips out on the water, they're able to use the data that's being assembled on that platform to make those kinds of decisions.

Yes, we are partnering internationally and learning from others and their best practices.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you very much.

We'll now move on to Ms. Vignola for two and a half minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

First, if I may, I'm going to make a comment for about 20 seconds.

Both of you talked about the need to identify gaps and the need to learn more about the hydrographic structure of the Arctic. It's also about its geomorphological structure. You didn't say it, but I'm hearing about it.

There's no shortage of reports pointing to gaps in this area, so I wonder why they're saying we need to identify the gaps. Honestly, I don't get it.

Two key partners are studying the Arctic's currents along with its hydrographic and geomorphological structure: Environment and Climate Change Canada, which is doing incredible research in that area, and the universities, particularly in Quebec, which have specializations in those fields.

Since there's been no shortage of resources for 10 or 15 years, Mr. Thangaraj, do you intend to use all those resources to identify gaps and characteristics?

[Arun Thangaraj]

Absolutely, and I think one of the things that we recognize, partly as a result of the audit but also our own work and consultations in this area, is that enhanced data and information from our partners at Environment Canada and other agencies will do nothing but enhance our ability to look at maritime situational awareness and analyze where those risks are, whether they be environmental or security.

As part of the review of the governance of maritime situational awareness, but also with marine security, we are looking at how we better incorporate those and use those in real time as we make these decisions. I think EMSA is part of that, where we are looking at information that our indigenous peoples have—

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

[Arun Thangaraj]

—but there are other information sources that we can also leverage.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

Had we spent a little more time consulting existing studies, we might not be struggling to keep our heads above water.

Mr. Waddell, with respect to our submarines—

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you.

We now move to Mr. Desjarlais for two and a half minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Just to continue, in some ways, in regard to the last line of questioning to the representative from Transport, it's concerning to me to think about how, in particular, the work of Transport in the north could affect the environment. It's no secret that climate change has had disproportionate effects on the Arctic north.

I also want to mention in particular, just as a friendly reminder and as a courtesy to the representative from Transport—and this is actually currently an issue in the House as well—the use of the words “our indigenous” and to just flag the use of the word “our” as a possessive term for indigenous folks and that we should avoid the use of that language.

I'll mention that once as a courtesy, but in the future moments, Madam Chair, I'll be raising it as a point of order.

I'll continue.

The work the government is doing to prepare for environmental impacts due to the increase in shipping does pose, I think, a credible threat to Arctic folks and particularly to Inuit ways of life. The working groups from the North Atlantic Marine Mammal Commission and the Canada-Greenland Joint Commission on Beluga and Narwhal met in Denmark in December of last year. They recently released a report that predicts there will be almost no narwhal left in the area off the northeastern coast of Baffin Island this summer.

Hunters in Pond Inlet, also known as Mittimatalik in Inuktitut, are seeing fewer and fewer narwhal in the area where there used to be an abundance, and they note that their behaviour is changing. This is severely affecting Inuit hunters' ability to harvest the narwhal they use for food, their livelihoods and, of course, their culture.

The commissions' reports were clear. The increase in shipping traffic from the nearby Mary River iron ore mine, run by Baffinland, is to blame for the disappearance of the narwhal.

My question is for the Environment Canada representative. Do you accept the findings of that report?

[Chris Forbes]

Thank you for that question.

I haven't seen that report myself, so I can't accept or reject it. I'd assume it was based on evidence.

Marine species at risk would fall under the purview of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. We do have a role, obviously, at Environment and Climate Change Canada in monitoring environmental sensitivities in the Arctic. I'm happy to provide more detail on that in further questioning, if that's helpful.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Sure. Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you very much.

We now move to Mr. Kram for five minutes.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses for being here today.

My questions will be mainly for the Department of National Defence, but if anyone else wants to chime in, certainly feel free.

Last June, like many Canadians, I watched with interest when I discovered on the news that we were going to have a new land border with Denmark, or at least we will once the treaty with the Danes regarding Hans Island is signed and implemented.

I was wondering if National Defence could share with the committee what activities have happened regarding Hans Island since last June. Are we coordinating or co-operating with the Danes to figure out a plan to monitor the Arctic waters around Hans Island?

[Bill Matthews]

Thank you for the question. I will turn to my colleague, if he has anything to add, in a second.

I'm looking at his face and I'm thinking not, so I will take this one.

We're happy to get back with additional information, but generally speaking, the Canadian Armed Forces has regular exercises in the area, including Operation Limpid and Operation Nanook. It's generally about overall awareness from both a marine and also an aerial perspective.

I am not aware of any specific activities with Denmark related to Hans Island, but we do collaborate very regularly with all of our allies, from a military perspective. My assumption is that there has been nothing specific related to this, but I will confirm that in writing, if that's okay.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Okay, but you're not aware of whether National Defence has done anything differently since last June. Is that correct?