Public Accounts Committee on March 6th, 2023

[Chris Forbes]

They're not here. There's nobody from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans here today.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Can the Auditor General's office give us some of their findings?

[Andrew Hayes]

I will ask my colleague, Mr. Swales, to provide a brief answer to that.

[Nicholas Swales, Principal, Office of the Auditor General]

What I would simply say is that the issue of fishing is one of the ones that we identified as the risks that are accompanying the greater access to the Arctic. Therefore, it's one of the issues that the closing of the gaps that we identified would be intended to address, which would simply reinforce the comments of Mr. Hayes that action is needed now.

[Lisa Setlakwe]

If I could just add on that.... This is definitely a question better addressed to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. However, on the platform that I referenced earlier in the engagement with indigenous people in the north, they are able to actually report out when they see illegal activity or what they think might be illegal activity. That gets reported in, depending on the activity, to Transport Canada, DFO, the Coast Guard or others. Then that gets fed into our maritime domain awareness, and the appropriate actions are taken from that point.

It all does come back to maritime domain awareness and using all of the tools that we have at our disposal to get a better handle on that. It is a combination of things. It's this platform. It's air surveillance. It's water surveillance and a number of other things.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

That's a very good answer.

Just to follow up on that, do we have any data or record of how many violations there are and whether illegal fishing is from domestic or foreign fishing boats? If the latter's the case, what country is most often being reported? Do we have any data on this?

[Lisa Setlakwe]

I think that one would definitely need to be directed to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Okay.

Have you received any reports on whether there is a severe impact due to these illegal fisheries?

[Lisa Setlakwe]

I would direct that one to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans as well.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you. That's very good.

In terms of climate change, I understand that, due to climate change, the area of the Arctic is more accessible.

With the increased opportunities for economic development and mining and the competition between nations in terms of accessing this area and potentially dealing with Canada, how do we square that off with the increased environmental risks that we're going to be facing?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

We'll have to save that answer for another time.

We are now moving on to Madame Vignola for two and a half minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

My question is for Mr. Waddell once again.

Mr. Waddell, I'm trying to understand your response about the potential to use Canada's submarines in the Arctic.

Am I to understand that our submarines are so outdated that it's becoming difficult, if not impossible, to use them over an area as large and significant as our Arctic waters?

[RAdm Steven Waddell]

Thank you for your question.

I'd like to answer in English, if I may.

I wouldn't say that the platforms are of such obsolescence that they cannot operate in and near the Arctic. As a matter of fact, they have undergone significant operational improvements to ensure that they are relevant platforms.

The challenge is in the operating system or the propulsion system of the platform. With that type of propulsion system, a diesel-electric submarine, and the kind of environment that the Arctic represents, it's just challenging—if not nearly impossible—for that type of propulsion technology to be able to operate in and around sea ice.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I want to talk about the transport system used to do Arctic air surveillance, the Dash 7 and Dash 8. We have one of the largest areas, if not the largest area, of Arctic coastline in the world, if you really take into account the periphery of the islands and the rest, unlike other environments.

As I understand it, we have two types of aircraft, one of which is so old that we have trouble finding parts for it. Is that enough to be really efficient? Also, how many planes would we need to be truly efficient? Will the aircraft ordered from Lockheed Martin and Boeing be able to go to the Arctic to perform surveillance missions?

I would ask Mr. Thangaraj to respond first, then Mr. Matthews.

[Arun Thangaraj]

The Dash 7s are aging aircraft, as you said. That is why we have procured a very robust spare parts inventory to ensure that we can keep them operational for as long as possible.

The surveillance program is augmented by the Dash 8 that flies out of Vancouver for the western Arctic. There are other Dash 8s positioned in Ottawa and Moncton that can be mobilized, if required, to ensure that we have adequate coverage for surveillance.

In the longer term, we are working with the Coast Guard on a plan to replace them—what the right aircraft and right capital asset are to replace them. In the meantime, the use of the remotely piloted aircraft is one way of augmenting the air capacity that we have, but the longer-term solution will be the result of the study we are doing with the Coast Guard.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you very much.

Next we have Mr. Desjarlais for two and a half minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'd like to continue in regard to the work that is taking place to regulate shipping within Canada's Arctic.

I'd like to ask the representative from the Department of Transport what the plan is to ensure that shipping in the Arctic is properly regulated, so that we avoid devastating impacts on marine ecosystems and the Inuit communities that depend on them.

What is the plan to regulate those?

[Lisa Setlakwe]

We have advanced some regulations through Bill C-33, which is in the House now. It is making its way through.

Part of that will allow for greater authorities for us to direct certain actions if events are taking place. It will also allow for better information sharing and for requiring operators to do certain things, depending on what the science is telling us and on what the implications are for the north and the Arctic.

We are—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Would Baffinland be exempt from those new regulations? Have they received any waivers of that kind or will they receive anything like that?

[Lisa Setlakwe]

I couldn't comment on that. I'd have to get back to you on that.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Are they following all existing, applicable maritime regulations?

[Lisa Setlakwe]

I'd have to get back to you on the specifics of that.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

You're not sure if Baffinland is following all applicable maritime regulation. I just want to be clear; it's quite important.

[Lisa Setlakwe]

It's an important question. I don't want to answer on a matter for which I don't have full information.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Would the deputy minister have any information?