Public Accounts Committee on March 6th, 2023

[Bill Matthews]

In terms of exercises and operations in the area, I'm not aware of anything specific, but as I said, I'm happy to take that back and see if there is something specific.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

I recall seeing in the news for years that, I believe, Canada would leave bottles of whisky on Hans Island and then the Danes would leave bottles of schnapps. Are we still doing that, or has that been discontinued?

[Bill Matthews]

As I said, the collaboration with Denmark has always been excellent—a great partner, a great relationship—but in terms of anything new and different since last June, I will have to get back to the committee.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Okay.

In terms of implementing the agreement that was signed with Denmark last June, is it a complicated agreement to implement? Is it a simple agreement to implement? What do you see from National Defence's perspective?

[Bill Matthews]

From a national defence perspective, I don't see any big obstacles, but I also would suggest that maybe this is a question that might be better placed with Global Affairs to see if they have anything to say. From a defence perspective, I don't see anything complicated.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Fair enough. Let's shift gears a little bit.

On page 17 of the Auditor General's report, it has a whole shopping list of expenditures for our Arctic waters. Will these expenditures count towards Canada's obligation to NATO to spend 2% of our GDP on defence spending?

That's for National Defence.

[Bill Matthews]

Any investment National Defence makes counts towards the calculation of 2%, so anything in here that will flow through National Defence will absolutely count. I won't speak for some other projects in here that are for Coast Guard and others.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

I guess my final question will be regarding the Nanisivik naval facility. Will expenditures towards that facility also count towards our NATO obligations to spend 2% of GDP?

[Bill Matthews]

Thank you for the question.

Again, anything that flows through National Defence, and certainly large components of this project do flow through National Defence, will count towards the 2% calculation.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Madam Chair, I believe that's basically my time.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

You still have 40 seconds left.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Okay. I will continue with the naval facility.

The report stated that the naval facility will be in operation for only four weeks of the year once it's finally up and running in 2025. For the other 48 weeks a year, what will the naval facility be used for?

[Bill Matthews]

I will speak to the defence perspective, unless you were directing this to the Auditor General.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Give a short answer, please.

[Bill Matthews]

It will be a refuelling station while it's open that is open to others as well. That is its purpose. Rob may add in if there's anything beyond the actual refuelling. We can get into this later, because we are short for time, but there are contingency plans in terms of how one refuels ships when that station is not open.

Rob, do you have anything to add?

[Rob Chambers, Assistant Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Environment, Department of National Defence]

I would just say that the facility is a deepwater port, so when it's iced in, it's not used. It is a port.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you.

We turn to Ms. Shanahan for five minutes.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

My questions as well will be addressed to National Defence.

We have heard from colleagues here today concerning Russia and the Danes. I'm concerned as well about intrusions on our jurisdiction. We all saw the reports regarding the balloons and the surveillance buoys that were found in Canadian and U.S. jurisdictions. What are we doing to protect our air, maritime and territorial spaces from unlawful surveillance and intrusion?

[Bill Matthews]

I can start, Madam Chair, and see if my colleagues wish to add anything.

It is a group team sport in this area, in that it is about all domain awareness. You need to keep your eye on the air and sea as well as land.

As we look to fill in the gaps that the Auditor General has identified in terms of awareness, you have to think across multiple departments. Transport Canada has already spoken to what they do. We do have ship patrols in the area when the season is appropriate. We also have our own air, but there's also the existing North Warning System and its upgrade, as well as the eventual replacement for NORAD modernization. That is all about the complete picture.

What I would flag, which is of interest to me, is that where the ships are of a large size and are complying with the law and are self-identifying, that's not a gap. You have smaller ships that are not required to use the identification system, and it's with our partner departments that we piece together that information to try to build the complete picture. We have mentioned numerous tools. I didn't mention satellites as well, which have already been flagged in terms of a tool.

It's that complete set. The Auditor General has flagged some gaps. We are discussing our plans to fill in those gaps as a group, but that's really the core of it.

I'm looking to my colleagues to see if they wish to add anything.

[RAdm Steven Waddell]

Madam Chair, I would also offer that the advent of the Arctic and offshore patrol ships, from a naval perspective, is greatly increasing our ability to operate for several months of the year, and that certainly contributes to a better understanding of the domain we're operating in.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I would like to hear further on the allegations—which I think have been demonstrated to be true—that it was Chinese surveillance buoys that were discovered.

Could you please talk to us specifically about that threat?

[Bill Matthews]

I will speak to that.

What you have seen reported in the media, there's not really much beyond that I can add at this table.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I'd also like to know from the Department of Nation Defence how we work with U.S. counterparts in this joint surveillance, notably the Five Eyes but specifically the United States.

[Bill Matthews]

I will start, but I expect my colleagues from the Royal Canadian Navy will add in.

Yes, Five Eyes is critical in terms of sharing information. Obviously, in the north, there's a special relationship with the U.S. because of NORAD.

If you are thinking about events in recent weeks related to high-altitude objects, I can say that collaboration and information sharing with the United States were exceptional. It is worth restating that NORAD is a binational command, so there is both Canadian and American participation. It was that relationship that was critical in terms of sharing information to deal with that situation.