Public Accounts Committee on March 6th, 2023

[Arun Thangaraj]

The department has its own aircraft services, and as part of the operation of those aircraft services, we have a fleet of Dash 7s as well as Dash 8s. What we've done is we've procured a level of inventory of spare parts to ensure that those Dash 7s remain in service—to extend the useful life and to minimize downtime over the next few years until a replacement can be chosen.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Is it getting harder to access replacement parts for the Dash 7?

[Arun Thangaraj]

It is getting harder, but over the fall and winter we have executed a procurement process for that, and our indications are that we will have the required inventory to maintain those planes.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Turning to the construction of the hangar and the accommodation facility in Iqaluit, can you provide an update on the progress? What's the significance of the infrastructure? Will it be used exclusively by Transport Canada or by other departments as well?

[Arun Thangaraj]

We finalized the design of the hangar and accommodations. It is going to procurement later this month, before the end of this current fiscal year, with, hopefully, construction by late summer or spring, given the construction season there.

It will do a couple of things for us. Having a hangar there will allow us to use our aircraft as well as the RPAS for extended periods of time. It will also be available to our partners in the north for their use as well.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

When do you anticipate that it will be completed and up and running?

[Arun Thangaraj]

We are hoping by fiscal year 2024-25.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Okay.

In looking at the Auditor General's report, would the recommendation 6.66 measures require further direction from central agencies, or does this require further leadership from department heads? For example, should the Privy Council Office and the Treasury Board Secretariat of Canada develop a specialized reporting system to capture the progress on critical aspects pertaining to Arctic surveillance in order to minimize the potential gaps that were identified in this audit?

Who would like to quickly take a crack at that? Do you think that's a suggestion that can be implemented or would be useful?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

We'll have to save that for another time.

We'll go on to Ms. Vignola for six minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank everyone for being here.

My first question is for Mr. Hayes.

Mr. Hayes, someone said at our last meeting that there is currently very little leeway with respect to renewing ships before the end of their useful life, that the situation seems to have worsened and that the action plan is not delivering the anticipated results.

In a few words, what are your concerns about our ships potentially reaching the end of their useful life? How would that impact national security?

[Andrew Hayes]

Thank you for the question.

I'm concerned about the overall state of Arctic waters surveillance. If we don't have the equipment we need to perform surveillance, we will face gaps and that will have implications for keeping the Arctic safe.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Could you give us two or three tangible, practical examples of these gaps?

[Andrew Hayes]

In our report, we mentioned that ships and satellites were needed. The gaps we noted in our report include providing the necessary information to government departments and the Canadian Coast Guard.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

My next question is for you, but also for Mr. Matthews.

When we talk about icebreakers, we're talking about very extensive capabilities because the Arctic remains covered in ice despite the fact that the glaciers are melting faster. The dream of using the Northwest Passage dates back to the 18th and 19th centuries. We need our icebreakers to do that.

We have a third shipyard in this country that's been doing better and better since 2015, and yet it's still not included in the national shipbuilding strategy; that shipyard is waiting for the framework agreement to be signed.

What effect is this delay having on shipbuilding and protecting our Arctic waters?

[Andrew Hayes]

First, we're confident that negotiations are underway. Mr. Matthews could probably provide greater detail on that.

We know that when negotiations are complete, it will take time to build these ships. That's a key factor in terms of the future of the ships.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

The sooner the framework agreement is signed, the sooner we get our ships. Prequalification was announced in 2019 and it's now 2023, almost four years later. We're seeing further delays every time. There's been no progress on our icebreakers, especially those destined for the Arctic.

Mr. Matthews, when will the framework agreement be signed? Will it be soon? We need to protect our Arctic waters.

[Bill Matthews]

Thank you for your question.

As the deputy minister of national defence, I'm not sure exactly when the agreement will be signed. Of course, negotiations have been ongoing for several months, as you just said. However, Public Services and Procurement Canada is handling that process, so that's all I can say at this time.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I will continue with you, Mr. Matthews.

Do we have any submarines patrolling the Arctic? How old are those submarines? What maintenance is required for each surveillance mission by our submarines?

[Bill Matthews]

I can start the answer, but I will then yield to my counterpart so he can add his comments.

Active submarines require a lot of maintenance, whether they are new or older. That's the nature of submarines. As we've said before, our submarines are fairly old.

Mr. Waddell, would you like to add anything?

[RAdm Steven Waddell, Deputy Commander, Royal Canadian Navy, Department of National Defence]

Thank you for your question.

The operations performed by submarines are actually complex and difficult. Submarines require significant support for operations in the Arctic. In addition, Arctic operations with a fleet are complex to maintain and require a great deal of support. For that matter, the same is true for operations in the Atlantic and Pacific. That's the reality of it.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you very much.

Now we'll move on to Mr. Desjarlais, who is on the screen, for six minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

The report clearly found that inadequate patrol equipment was not the only major problem in terms of marine surveillance. It also pointed to a massive infrastructure gap that is affecting the aerial patrol needs. That gap is centred on Nunavut's airports.

As the report states:

The lack of adequate infrastructure is also a problem for the National Aerial Surveillance Program. From July to November, Transport Canada's Dash 7 maritime patrol airplane is located in Iqaluit, but the department does not have the infrastructure needed to maintain its aircraft or house its personnel in the Arctic.

We heard aspects of that in the Transport representatives' comments, but absent is the fact that the airport itself—the actual physical airport—is in need of critical infrastructure repair and maintenance. Anyone who knows the realities of the Arctic can tell you that the issues with the airports' infrastructure are not limited to those under the aerial surveillance program. Airports in their entirety aren't being properly invested in for things like operations and maintenance.

My colleague Lori Idlout represents Nunavut as the member of Parliament for that area. I had an opportunity to connect with her on some of the things that the people there are experiencing—the direct constituents of Nunavut. They're deeply concerned about the horrific state of their infrastructure. She told me there was even mould in the airport's terminal.

The communities of Whale Cove and Cambridge Bay in particular still don't even have paved airstrips. They're still landing on gravel when there's no ice and snow. It's unthinkable that these kinds of structural and health issues in airport terminals would remain unaddressed. That just wouldn't be a reality for us in the south. It's even worse, because Whale Cove has had several boil water advisories. They are being forced to choose between having a new terminal and thinking about some of the water problems and infrastructure problems that are present there, including sewage. It's a very difficult decision they have to make, of course.

My question is for the Transport Canada officials. Should Whale Cove and other Inuit communities be put in a position of having to choose between getting mould out of their airport terminals and having the infrastructure needed for clean water?

[Arun Thangaraj]

In the past few years the department has focused on airport infrastructure, including northern airports and facilities and the rehabilitation of runways. We acknowledge that air is the only link into many of these communities. Substantial investments have been made in rehabilitating infrastructure. Obviously there is more to be done. There are plans to look at in terms of where those investments can be made, not only in runways but also—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Is it acceptable to have mould in an airport terminal? That's the question.