Public Accounts Committee on March 6th, 2023

[RAdm Steven Waddell]

I would supplement the comments from the deputy minister that the United States and Canada have a long-standing relationship. That extends, of course, to the maritime environment, in particular between our navies. In fact, within our regional joint operation centres are intelligence enablers. Those intelligence enablers allow us to collaboratively share information of classified levels in and among ourselves so that we can contribute to the domain awareness and use those as cueing events to do other intercepts or other responses to threats as they manifest.

There is a long-standing, very solid relationship with our American partners to share that information from an intelligence perspective, which underpins the domain awareness we seek to achieve.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I would like to hear further from Mr. Matthews, the deputy minister, about investments that have been made to support that collaboration with the United States, specifically in our capabilities. Are they sufficient for this relationship to continue to be beneficial?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Give a very short answer, please.

[Bill Matthews]

All right. I'll highlight a couple of quick ones, Madam Chair.

Number one is the recent contract about a year ago to maintain the North Warning System. That's important while we plan and develop polar over-the-horizon radar and over-the-horizon radar projects that are part of NORAD modernization.

We've already talked about the Arctic offshore patrol ships. The other one I will flag as a coming attraction is infrastructure related to the F-35 purchase. That will be a coming attraction as well.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you.

We now move to our third round, starting off with Mr. Bezan for five minutes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Madam Chair, I want to thank the witnesses for being here. For some of us, it's getting to be an old habit to see you guys.

My first question is for the Office of the Auditor General.

When you guys were doing this review of Arctic surveillance, Arctic security and maritime awareness, were you aware at that time of the report that just came out last week of the Chinese buoys that were found doing surveillance in the Arctic?

[Andrew Hayes]

No, we were not aware of that report.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Okay.

My question to National Defence, then, is whether that information was shared with the Office of the Auditor General when those buoys were discovered.

[Bill Matthews]

As I've said, Madam Chair, not to my knowledge. That's number one.

I can't really talk at this table beyond anything you've seen in the media reporting on that event.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Could you, Mr. Matthews, at least tell us the timeline of exactly when those buoys were identified and recovered by National Defence?

[Bill Matthews]

I don't think I can drift into that space today, Madam Chair.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

My understanding is that the Office of the Auditor General has security clearances. That information is shareable with the office—is it not?

[Andrew Hayes]

I can answer that question.

We have a broad range of access rights and we would have access to that information, but we would be similarly limited in the information we can share at this table.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

When the OAG was doing its report, which came out in the fall of 2022, if those buoys were discovered during the time you were doing your investigation, would that have fallen under your purview at that time? Had you already done your look at all the data that was provided by National Defence at that time and moved on to drafting your report?

[Andrew Hayes]

Our conclusions were based on events up until March 31, 2022, so if that information had been available, we would have had access to that.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Observations based upon the recovery of those buoys, as well as the balloon incidents we've had that violated Canadian airspace, including in the Arctic, where one was shot down in Yukon, do they speak to the shortfalls you've identified in our Arctic surveillance systems?

[Andrew Hayes]

While I can't speak directly to those events, one of the main points of our report was that the gaps that have been identified, and that are long-standing, known gaps, should be addressed immediately. The Arctic is becoming more and more navigable and accessible, so we would expect concrete actions to be taken at this point.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

When the OAG appeared at the national defence committee, we asked questions about some of the violations, which included pleasure vessels that had violated Canadian Arctic waters without proper identification, transponders or reporting in. When the OAG did its evaluation of maritime awareness, did you take into hard consideration the new changes that have been made to NORAD, the joint responsibility between Canada and the U.S., and how we're feeding that information into the NORAD matrix?

[Andrew Hayes]

In doing our report, we didn't look at international aspects or co-operation. We focused in on Canada's ability to monitor the north.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

My question to National Defence is this: In the NORAD modernization, as we're moving forward, and for those of us who have been to Colorado Springs and have seen how the U.S. Coast Guard is integrated into NORAD's day-to-day operations, is the Royal Canadian Navy taking more of a role in making sure that we're part of that reporting and evaluation process that takes place at NORAD?

[Bill Matthews]

The information flow from all lines of service up to NORAD is excellent. What I think we will see in the future, as some of these assets come online with additional radars, is that more information will be flowing. Through the MSOCs the navy is well plugged in. Any intel that is interesting and relevant gets flowed up through NORAD and through allies as well.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

My last question is for the Auditor General.

You have definitely laid out the problems that are associated with satellite surveillance, including the replacement of the RADARSAT Constellation. How quickly should we be moving as parliamentarians in pushing the government to replace our existing RADARSAT Constellation?

[Andrew Hayes]

Our recommendation at paragraph 6.66 identified the fact that there could be contingency plans, but concrete actions need to be taken now.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean Yip]

Thank you.

We now have Mr. Dong, for five minutes.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

My question is for Fisheries and Oceans Canada but not limited to it.

There is one particular aspect of the report that caught my attention. It was regarding illegal fishing. It says:

The presence of fishing vessels, and their share of overall traffic, has increased significantly in the Arctic. Illegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing in the Arctic has been a rising concern, especially because of its potential effect on fragile marine ecosystems and the economy and the risk of increased tensions among fishing nations.

Can the department tell us a bit more about that? Who is doing the illegal fishing, and how severe is it?

To me, that is an act of encroachment on our territory. You don't see that a lot on the news, but it is a very serious problem. If illegal fishing is happening, that could lead to many other illegal things that might be more problematic.

The second point is regarding the fragile ecosystem up north. Given the effects of climate change now, making the surrounding water more accessible, I want to get a better understanding of how severe the problem is.