Public Accounts Committee on March 20th, 2023

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Perhaps I'll ask it in a different way. Is all the money needed to finalize these 112 projects in the main estimates that were just tabled?

[Joanne Wilkinson, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indigenous Services]

To clarify, there's $12 million annually dedicated to structural mitigation projects. We work within the department to prioritize these projects when funding becomes available through other sources, such as the community infrastructure—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

This is a question for the minister. Why isn't there the money in the main estimates to finish all these projects?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I assume that through these questions, you will be supporting budget 2023 as we seek to continue to close the gap in infrastructure that was a result of decades, actually, of neglect by previous governments, including Conservative governments—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Here we go. It's Harper's fault, yes.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

—recently. The gap is quite large—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

That's a disgraceful answer, Minister.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. McCauley, you can ask a question or you can listen for the answer, but....

Okay, go ahead. You're down to about 15 seconds.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Okay.

I noticed in your departmental plans that there's not one mention of any items from the Auditor General's report in the results expected. There's not one item.

I also note in the main estimates that there's $980 million to fund wealthy people buying electric cars, but we do not have the money to address this outstanding issue in the main estimates.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That is your time. We'll have to come back to that.

Colleagues, I have no problem with members pushing witnesses for answers, but I won't allow commentary that's not a question. Again, a back-and-forth is healthy, but run-over commentary is less so.

Ms. Yip, you have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Welcome, Minister, to public accounts. Thank you for coming.

Did you want to finish answering any of the questions that Mr. McCauley asked?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

No...well, maybe I will. Maybe I'll just say that emergency mitigation projects, along with many other infrastructure needs for first nations.... Undoubtedly there's a huge gap. The gap is something that our government has been very deliberate in trying to close, in fact, with unprecedented investments in first nations infrastructure.

This work must continue, so I hope that members of this committee will vote favourably for budget 2023, as we present the next steps in closing that significant infrastructure gap.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

As indigenous services minister, you have undoubtedly participated in many round tables with the indigenous communities. What is the number one ask that indigenous communities have when you provide feedback on the emergency management assistance program?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Talking about emergency management is one of the very emotional spaces for me as a minister, because what we're talking about—and many of you may have experienced some climate-related emergency in your own life, a flood at home or relocation—is significantly disruptive to communities.

In the past, while communities were in the chaos of trying to manage crisis, there was a fairly restrictive approach to getting money to them. What communities would say frequently was that they needed flexibility in those times. What they needed was the ability to have some form of advance payment so that they could, on the fly, decide how to protect people, protect property, deal with the ongoing emotional crises that inevitably swell up in the time of an emergency, and the many other things that we can and can't imagine.

In fact, the department has been able to do that. We've pivoted from a “show us your receipts” approach to a “here's an advance” approach to supporting communities through crisis management, which then enables that community to act much more rapidly. They don't have to worry about whether or not they will be reimbursed for a particular expense.

Some of the stories I heard were incredible, like the Tsilhqot'in protecting their community in the middle of a forest fire raging around them and being able to, very quickly and rapidly, mobilize to keep the fire away from their perimeter using historical knowledge of fire management.

Those kinds of things are enabled when people don't worry about the money they're going to need to rent specialized equipment, to support volunteers or to do the kinds of activities that sometimes we can't imagine unless we've done that ourselves. This approach has been a real success story over the last year and a half.

We learned a lot by supporting communities through COVID. If you remember, in the early days of COVID the federal government needed to make money and resources available to communities so they could enable measures that would protect them from COVID. It proved to be very successful. In fact, we had reports from first nations communities that talked about the ability to protect life using that flexibility and honouring the knowledge that communities have.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

The flexibility of these payments really helps the communities. Have you heard feedback with respect to, as you just mentioned, the COVID period of time?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Yes. Maybe I can turn to the officials to talk a little about the conversations they've been having around that flexibility and what they're seeing. I certainly hear it at one level, but they're seeing it at a micro level.

[Joanne Wilkinson]

Certainly. Maybe I'll use Peguis as an example.

Peguis is a community in Manitoba that has had repeated flooding year after year. With them, we have done advance payments, not only for response and recovery but also for preparedness.

For this spring, as an example, we provided them with $2.5 million so that they can prepare. One of the advantages for them is that it then reduces the burden on their cash flow, so that they can be out contracting those services immediately, without having to dip into their own resources to float those types of projects. That's probably the most important piece for a nation like Peguis, ensuring that they have the cash on hand to procure those services immediately.

Thank you.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

The AG's report noted that Indigenous Services Canada spent 3.5 times more on responding to emergencies than on supporting first nations communities to prepare for them.

We were just talking about the cost of structural mitigation in infrastructure. What makes the cost of responding to emergencies so high?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I can give a general comment and turn to officials.

The frequency of events, as I mentioned in my remarks, is just astronomical. In 2010, as I mentioned, there were 92 reported emergencies. In 2022, there were 173. The frequency and the rapidity at which the department is having to respond....

Of course, everything you're doing in crisis management is expensive. We are talking about evacuating people and the cost of accommodations. In some cases, it's for a lengthy period of time if homes are destroyed. Sometimes it's the cost of additional resources around mental health and support for people's mental health. Sometimes people are left without anything, so you're not only accommodating people but building up their lives again with some of the basics that they need.

Maybe I can turn to Joanne to talk about—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to cut you off, Minister. I appreciate that. We'll come back to that. I'm sure the officials will be able to provide information at a future time.

Go ahead, Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné. You have six minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to the witnesses.

Minister, this is a rather important meeting, so I would like to point something out. From the Auditor General's first report on emergency management on reserves in 2013 to the Auditor General's 2022 report on emergency management in first nations communities, a number of the findings haven't changed. That's why we've requested so many meetings with you.

We met with the deputy minister, Gina Wilson, in November, but it was also important for us to speak with you, because we all represent members of the population who are very concerned to see so many major gaps. First nations are really struggling, and although the government seems to have good intentions, it isn't acting on them in a meaningful way, unfortunately.

Three of the Auditor General's findings are especially noteworthy. First, Indigenous Services Canada did not provide the support first nations communities needed to manage emergencies such as floods and wildfires. These emergencies are happening more often and with greater intensity, mainly because of climate change, and first nations tend to be more vulnerable to them. Second, the department spent three and a half times more money on response and recovery than on preparedness and mitigation. That approach is less cost-effective, as everyone knows. Third, the Auditor General noted with anger and dismay that many of the 2022 findings were the same as they were a decade ago.

Thank you, by the way, for providing us with a somewhat more detailed action plan last week. Some progress has been made. It addresses issues I raised when we met in November, laying out clearer and more specific time frames. I can see that you've made some efforts.

I'd like you to respond to the points I mentioned. First, is the risk assessment under way, and above all, will it address the specific needs of the communities?

[Gina Wilson, Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services]

Thank you so much.

I just want to talk a little about the risk assessment.

Like I stated the last time I was here, I was thankful to the Auditor General for the recommendation on a risk-based approach. She recommended something along these lines in 2013.

To my understanding, we felt that we in fact had incorporated a risk-based approach through our priority-ranking framework on infrastructure, which is based on risk, and also through our risk-based formula through the EMAP funding.

In talking to the Auditor General when we received the draft report, we came to understand that her understanding of a risk-based approach was not satisfactory. What we plan to do is to improve that risk-based approach. You have that in the recommendation and the timelines.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I see. You are confirming that the risk assessment will be very specific and that you will provide it to the committee so we can review it.

I hope you'll follow it up with the funding necessary for prevention. We agree that responding to an incident is clearly not the way to do things, especially given what an impact climate change has on the number of events first nations communities experience. For that reason, I want to stress how important it is that you provide funding for prevention.

Earlier, one of the officials mentioned that $12 million was going to be put towards prevention annually. Now Indigenous Services Canada's overall budget is $39.6 billion. You'll have to forgive me here, but $12 million for prevention out of a total of $39.6 billion sounds like peanuts to me.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

In general, the gap is huge; you're absolutely right. In terms of emergency management, the challenge the department has increasingly had is that the need to respond is increasing and growing. There is a fiscal challenge in meeting simultaneously the urgency of the response measures that you have to take quickly when there is a crisis, but also having the capacity in terms of the infrastructure mitigation work.

As other officials have mentioned, though, in particular Mr. O'Connor, we don't have one source of money for infrastructure investments in first nations. It doesn't all come through Indigenous Services Canada. There is, obviously, money in Indigenous Services Canada, but there are a number of other departments, including Infrastructure, that Indigenous Services works collaboratively with to close that gap.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Minister, for answering that.

You mentioned a possible fiscal shortfall. The department's actual expenditures in 2020‑21 were $16 billion, but your budget was more than twice that. That means a whole lot of money wasn't spent. Why did you allocate only $12 million to prevention when you know how much work is required on that front and you didn't spend all the money you got from the government?