Public Accounts Committee on March 20th, 2023

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I take from your remarks and what you talked about previously with respect to advance payments in response to the whole challenge of emergency management, that the approach of advance payments fits very well and reflects the goal of reconciliation. Rather than having you confirm that, and I think you've done it even by nodding, would you say this is now underpinning the entire vision of emergency management going forward, getting payments in advance rather than after the fact?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

It's an actual policy change. That, in itself, is a formalized approach. It isn't something that we're considering on a case-by-case basis.

I will say, though, that if a particular community doesn't want that approach, that is certainly within their prerogative as well. Some communities, for example, have sufficient resources to manage a crisis without needing an advanced payment.

That is a huge cultural shift. It's built on trust, actually. If you don't trust people, you need to see every receipt. If you trust people, you can do audits in a way that is far more respectful of the relationship.

We're not on the ground, as officials. In particular, deep within departments, they are not on the ground to understand that, for example, a team of 20 volunteers that has been working 24 hours a day might need to buy T-shirts. I'm not even saying it would or wouldn't have been covered in the past, but to an auditor or to a person reimbursing on a receipt basis, for example, that might look like a silly expense.

For the many first nations leaders I've talked to, keeping their volunteers engaged and connected is super important for being able to continue to, for example, prepare the site so that the fire doesn't breach the wall. We can't necessarily understand on a granular basis what goes into that.

Having been a professional working in not-for-profit, I can tell you that keeping your volunteers happy is a critical ingredient in keeping your organization running.

That flexibility allows communities to make those decisions on the fly, without worrying about whether they are going to get covered for it.

We are now looking to be a supportive partner in those kinds of decisions and doing so in an accountable way together.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Minister, I have about 30 seconds. It's not related directly to the contents of this report.

Are you engaged with counterparts internationally? I'm thinking of Australia. There have been huge disasters there, particularly with flooding and fires. Obviously, there are large indigenous populations.

Are you engaged in conversations? If you are, could you elaborate a little on that?

I'm thinking about best practices and an exchange on those best practices.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

It's a great question.

Under the previous Conservative government, international travel was severely affected. International relationships were severely affected for department officials. That loss of knowledge exchange and best practice, as you point out, is something that I think all ministers would say is fairly profound. We're trying to regain it through re-establishing connections with counterparts through the United Nations and through other...colonial countries, for lack of a better word.

Connecting indigenous women leaders with Maori leaders last summer to do some of that knowledge exchange benefits not just the work of the government, but the work of advocates on the ground.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Minister.

We'll turn now to Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné.

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you have just two and a half minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have to say that I'm a bit disappointed. I came here today with the intention of working constructively, but here we are witnessing partisan comment after partisan comment. We're getting finger pointing because one government was supposedly worse than the other, but the truth is that they were both bad. After eight years in power, the Liberals haven't done much to improve things, and frankly, it's shameful.

Minister, you accused members of voting against the budget. It's not that we don't agree with the amount of funding; it's that we don't agree with how you administer that funding. It's clear from the Auditor General's reports that we're right to take issue with your budgets and the way you administer them.

Let's talk about your budget. You spent only half of your funding, and you say it has to do with how long everything takes. How long does it take to provide water pumps so that communities can fight fires? Forgive me for saying that it shouldn't take 10 years and that there's something wrong if it does.

Can you tell me how long it will be until communities like the Atikamekw community of Manawan, which is just north of my riding, will have all the equipment they need to fight fires? As we all know, those fires are more and more frequent. I'd like a time frame, please.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

It's important to distinguish between what takes the most time, which is infrastructure, and what we can rapidly put into place, which is equipment. It's fairly easy to support the purchase of pumps and equipment.

I think what Mr. O'Connor was talking about was complex civil engineering, like staging, for example. If you have visited a northern community—I assume everyone here has—you know that even getting equipment and people to a community to task multiple projects....

Neskantaga is a perfect example. They may have three or four constructions projects on the go, but they don't have the capacity to house three or four construction crews. The don't have capacity to have—

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Sorry to cut you off, Minister, but I have just 20 seconds left.

I agree with you that long-term infrastructure projects take longer, but I have here proof that the Atikamekw community of Manawan had to buy its own firefighting equipment. Then, the community had to wait months before it was reimbursed for the equipment.

How do you explain that?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

That is exactly what we've changed. I think when you talk about the emergency management aspect and not the infrastructure and resiliency aspect, that approach whereby we are supporting communities to purchase equipment and we're supporting communities with advance payments.... That is the change. I think it is a profound change, and it has resulted from reflections of this government, the Auditor General's approach, and of course a renewed relationship built on respect, trust and self-determination. Maybe—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Your time is up.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to return to this topic and the funding of the structural mitigation fund.

Madam Minister, perhaps your officials could look for data related to that and the conversation they had directly with you on that. I want to comment on what structural racism really is, because I think that is the big piece that's missing, not only in your attitude present in this committee, but also in dealing with the nature of the severity of this. It's a severe topic.

We're trying to centre indigenous and first nations people, and twice now you've commented on Stephen Harper. I agree, and I've agreed that he's part of this problem, but so is your government. That's the piece you're not recognizing. Indigenous people—any victims of violence—need to ensure that the one who perpetrated that violence understands that violence in a really important and intimate way, because indigenous people have given a lot to this country not to have this kind of disrespect. When the Auditor General says for over a decade that this has been an issue, and you say there's no problem; don't look here; we need to find a better solution....

Indigenous people right across this country feel that this ministry, in particular, is out of touch, and we need to find creative ways to acknowledge that yes, we've failed. We're not saying to fire anybody. We're saying agree to that fact, so we can recognize what the real solution is here.

The solution wasn't to divide the ministry from INAC to Crown-Indigenous Relations and ISC and to have indigenous people sort out the mess, and to tell them to go into the labyrinth and try to find this in the ministry. No. I went through that mess for eight years as a national director for the Métis—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have 45 seconds, Mr. Desjarlais.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

It was very difficult.

Madam Minister, the question is on the deputy minister's discussion with you, when she asked you to increase the structural mitigation fund, particularly. I want you to comment on just that fund. She asked for $358 million. Will you provide that, yes or no?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

First, let me say that I have never said, “No problem, don't look here.” I am the first to say that we are still in a colonial system that oppresses indigenous people, so let me be clear about that.

Secondly, what I will say is that we are doing everything we can to ensure the department is fully resourced to meet all of its obligations. As you know, budget deliberations are confidential. I can't explain to you the requests I have in front of the finance minister, but I can tell you that the Prime Minister's expectation of me is to fight for indigenous people's right to be self-determined and to have the equity to be able to do that.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Kram, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the minister and staff for being here today.

Minister, I would like to read a couple of quotes from the report. At the bottom of page 19, it says, “We found that most of the department’s performance indicators tracked spending to measure its progress against the goals.” Then it goes on to say, “Spending is not a good measure because it does not mean that results are being achieved.”

Would you agree with that statement, Minister?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I would, and I would also agree with all of the Auditor General's recommendations, as I said in my earlier remarks.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

What will be the new performance indicators, other than money spent, to achieve actual improved results for indigenous Canadians?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I think you have it, the proposed plan, under paragraph 8.66—“Indigenous Services Canada should develop performance indicators”. That work is under way.

Maybe Joanne would like to speak a bit more about the work of developing those indicators.

[Joanne Wilkinson]

Certainly. You'll see in the management action plan, under section 8.66, the steps and timelines that are identified to achieve new performance indicators that, in fact, are not focused on funding but on outcomes, and that relate back to the department's new departmental results framework.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

I'd like to turn now to page 18 of the report, where it talks about the Kashechewan First Nation. This nation has been evacuated every year for the past decade. Are they going to be evacuated again this year?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'm really glad you raised Kashechewan, because, in fact, Kashechewan, as you point out, has had a terrible experience with evacuation related to flooding, but Kashechewan has had some recent success, and that is through a new approach that the department has taken, the principles of self-determination. In fact, last year, I believe, Kashechewan used a land-based approach to evacuate from the anticipated flooding area, which allowed for community members to stay closer together, to stay united and to stay connected to culture and language.

Joanne, do you want to speak a bit more about Kashechewan?

[Joanne Wilkinson]

Certainly. In fact, it's been a couple of years, Minister, that the “on the land” initiative has been pursued with Kashechewan. We have officials in the community, in fact, next week to meet with the community and take the best lessons from the last couple of years of on the land, which was also helpful during COVID.

It enables the members to hunt and to have their cultural practices in a way that does not disrupt them and have them come to cities, where we would be looking at other cultural supports, as was mentioned earlier. That initiative has been very strong, and we're studying it closely to make sure we can enable that sort of prevention.

To one of the earlier points, it is certainly a more economical pursuit than an evacuation would be, so it is all around a very, very good initiative.

Thank you.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Yes. I understand that they are not being relocated to different communities, but they're still being relocated within that first nation. Is there any plan to not have to relocate them at all, or will they continue to be relocated every single year indefinitely?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

The first thing to realize is that those are the ancestral lands of the Kashechewan people, so there is a connection to that land. Any choice about moving from that particular flood area would be at the request of Kashechewan First Nation, and it would not be a good partner thing to do to insist that they move. This approach, as Ms. Wilkinson has pointed out, allows for self-determination in the course of the community itself wrestling with those very things.

Communities that face repeated and ongoing flooding also love their community. They also love their region. It is a hugely emotional deliberation for communities to decide whether or not they've had enough of the flooding and that they want to pull up everything, all their connections to that area, and choose a new area. It's not easy politically for the elected leaders of the community, and it's certainly very difficult to find consensus. We work with communities on their determined approach. Should Kashechewan at some point decide that it wanted to relocate, this government would work with Kashechewan to understand what that could look like.