Evidence of meeting #63 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cra.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:55 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
I see.
I want to come back to the CRA's decisions.
Have any charities been revoked for failing to comply with rules such as the disbursement quota or for improperly issuing tax receipts?
4:55 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
There may be cases of charities being revoked for those reasons. I don't have a specific example for you right now, but this would be part of our overall compliance program.
4:55 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Could you send the committee an example of a case, without revealing any identifying information, to give us a clear sense of the criteria the agency would apply in the circumstances?
May 11th, 2023 / 4:55 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Yes, I could provide an example.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you, Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné.
Ms. Khare, can I ask you to remain here for Mr. Desjarlais' round? He will be done in about six minutes, I'm sure. Thank you.
Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for six minutes, please. It's over to you.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for indulging me for the next few moments. I understand you have a train to catch, so I'll be six minutes.
I want to follow up on the questions from my colleagues. It's something that Canadians have a tough time grappling with, in many ways. I hope we can provide the answers, with your testimony and the questions asked today, to help Canadians understand how intrinsically important your work is in trying to understand or at least verify your processes on how these donations are qualifiable, or the assistance that CRA could or may be providing—or lack thereof—to create situations like this.
I want to speak specifically to the regulations pertaining to the CRA that could allow for something like this.
Could you provide details about the mechanisms through which executive members or board members from the Trudeau foundation could report to you that rules or regulations pertaining to the CRA were not followed? Do any such mechanisms exist?
5 p.m.
Commissioner of Revenue and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Revenue Agency
Maybe on that, I'll let my colleague answer, but first I would like to anonymize the question into “for any way that a board member could raise an issue with us, whoever or whatever that board might be.” I'll let Geoff or Sharmila answer it, but my sense is that it's a piece of information we would find valuable, like a lead.
5 p.m.
Director General, Charities Directorate, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
I think the most appropriate venue for that type of information would be to submit it as a lead to the agency.
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NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Okay, and then with this lead to the agency, what do you do with it?
5 p.m.
Director General, Charities Directorate, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
We review all leads that come in that relate to registered charities, and we would look at it to see if there was some risk that was worth a deeper investigation.
5 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
How often in Canada do you receive anonymous, let's say, requests or leads like this?
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Director General, Charities Directorate, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
I don't know if we've categorized the types of leads that we've —
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Director General, Charities Directorate, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
—received to date from informants in charities. I know we have received leads from informants in charities before, but I don't know how many.
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NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
You're not certain how many. Okay.
Have you ever receive any notices from members of boards or charities about any rules or regulations that were not being followed within these leads?
5 p.m.
Director General, Charities Directorate, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
If a lead came in from an informant who is well established within the charity, that might be the type of information they share with us.
5 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
When they provide that information, do you that think there's enough existing whistle-blower protections to ensure that the members of that said board or agency or foundation can come forward if they're unsure if the rules are being followed?
5 p.m.
Director General, Charities Directorate, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
As an agency, we never disclose our leads.
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NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
You think that there's sufficient protection for that person or charity member to make that lead or that disclosure to the CRA.
5 p.m.
Commissioner of Revenue and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Revenue Agency
Our belief is that there's enough protection. We keep that information confidential to ourselves and don't communicate with the person who gave the lead unless something happens at the end. They'll see it on our website.
On your earlier question, we can go back and look. Obviously we don't have the stats in our hand—
5 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
That would be helpful. Please send that back to the committee.
5 p.m.
Commissioner of Revenue and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Revenue Agency
I don't know if we even catch them by different category, but if we do, I'm happy to provide—
5 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Even if it's the total number of how many leads from corporations, registered charities or foundations are received by the CRA.... It would also be important to know how many you follow up on. I think that also protects the anonymity that's been spoken of by the Liberals at great length and how important it is to protect confidentiality.
I do believe, however, that the summary of information does that but also provides this committee with valuable information on the rate that this is happening within corporations that receive federal funds and to how many we respond. At the very least, I think that is something that the CRA could provide to Canadians for greater assurance. When an organization undergoes the kind of scrutiny that we see in the public and when we see the kinds of issues pertaining to this donation in particular, and donations like it, it would be important for Canadians to know their frequency and if the CRA is even capable of solving those matters.
If a lead is submitted, do you believe that the CRA is capable of identifying that wrongdoing is taking place?
5 p.m.
Commissioner of Revenue and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Revenue Agency
Yes, I believe we can. We have, and we can.
Mr. Chair, I just want to manage your expectations. I don't know how disaggregated our lead information is. We're going to go back and check, because we don't always keep track of every aspect of this type of lead or that type of lead, so we will go back and check, but it may not be the level of detail that you're describing.
When we get a lead, I feel quite confident in the team and our ability to be able to look at it and see if there's something there, and if there is something, to pursue it to one of the ends we talked about—education, revocation or whatever it might be.