Public Accounts Committee on March 1st, 2022

[Chris Forbes]

I would answer by saying that I think we had a lot in place already, though probably not totally prepared for the scale of the COVID pandemic and the cross-country impacts.

Again, as I mentioned in my remarks, we were quite able to quickly bring together stakeholders, provinces and territories to troubleshoot and problem-solve on issues large and small. Certainly I would say that we were able to roll out the necessary funding relatively quickly.

To me, this is about taking those lessons, building on what we've had to do over the last two years, and solidifying that into a more formal plan and preparedness, which I think is clearly required.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Yes.

On a question about PPE, we've seen some other programs where PPE was an eligible expense, for example, the seafood processing program, but not in the emergency processing fund, which was more geared towards food production. I'm going to reference Cargill, when they had the outbreak in April 2020.

Why did only departments in one region of the country have access to PPE as an eligible expense? Out west, we had a scenario where there were outbreaks, yet they still couldn't have access to PPE being an eligible expense when it was clearly one of the main items that was sorely in need to prevent any delays to food production.

[Chris Forbes]

I can't speak to the design, obviously, of the fisheries program. What I can say is that in the programming that we put together for the food sector, we wanted to focus on the needed changes to processes, the fact that lines needed to be changed and adjusted. There might be things like station set-ups that were safely set up.

With the funding that we had, we directed it towards more significant installations, almost capital-type expenditures that were required. We felt that was the best way to focus that money.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

I'm still hung up on the fact that we had major plant closures. There was a whole trickle-down effect. For our ranchers, our producers, the guys who are raising cattle to sell to the processors, it had a direct impact on them. The fact that these facilities were shut down for something as simple as not having access to PPE.... That was one of many reasons that they were shut down, but that was a big part of it.

With the outbreak that happened, there was a massive impact on the entire industry. I think the lack of a comprehensive strategy and the fact that they weren't allowed to have that as an eligible expense really made it a problem here. Why was that not targeted by the department?

[Chris Forbes]

I think the issue for PPE was adequate supply for sure, and making sure that there were ways to get it. I'm not sure it was a financial barrier for companies; you mentioned Cargill in that case. A lot of issues went into shutdowns, slowdowns and then reopening. We tried to address some of those key issues through the emergency food security funding.

I would just add that, obviously, as those shutdowns and slowdowns hit, we were very live to the challenges in the cattle sector. Indeed, we had an AgriRecovery type of program, as you would remember, that was there to support.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Forbes.

Ms. Bradford, you have six minutes, please.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Good morning.

I would like to thank all of our witnesses for being here to answer our questions on this very important topic. I don't think I've ever seen such a fulsome panel of witnesses at committee before. Welcome, everyone.

Deputy Auditor General Hayes, I would like to address my first question to you. Recommendation number 12.29 states:

Agriculture and Agri‑Food Canada should work with its federal, provincial, and territorial partners, as well as its stakeholders, to complete a national emergency preparedness and response plan for a crisis affecting Canada’s entire food system, taking into consideration the food security of Canadians.

Against what metrics did the OAG compare and assess the department's existing national emergency preparedness and response management framework?

[Andrew Hayes]

We started off by looking at whether or not there was a plan in place. We found that they did have a framework focused only on plant and animal health, but not on the food sector as a whole. Our conclusion was that there was a need for a national emergency preparedness and response plan. We recognize, of course, in the recommendation that the government does have to work with provincial and territorial partners.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

What deficiencies in the plan's management were due to long-standing issues compared with those brought on by the specific challenges of the COVID-19 pandemic?

[Andrew Hayes]

To answer that question, Mr. Chair, I would say that we could look at a number of reasons there could be a threat to the food security as a whole for our country, whether it's natural disasters brought on by climate change or other reasons. Our concern was that a national plan that takes the food from farm to fork would be an important element of being prepared for any emergency.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Based on your audits of other federal initiatives, how successful has the Government of Canada been overall with regard to achieving its sustainable development goals?

[Andrew Hayes]

With respect to the sustainable development goals, we do a lot of work in this area. We have the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development within our office. We find that on a number of important crosscutting issues, whether they're across the federal government departments or across the federal, provincial and territorial lines, there's a need for enhanced collaboration, communication and cohesion. We find a lot of places where there is not the comprehensive planning and collaboration needed to achieve the sustainable development goals.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Recommendation 12.64 states:

Agriculture and Agri‑Food Canada should ensure that its future programs are delivered fairly and transparently to all involved, including applicants and recipients.

To what extent did the OAG consider the acute challenges of the COVID-19 pandemic when examining this particular situation for recommendation?

[Andrew Hayes]

In making this recommendation, we were concerned about the consistency across the country and the transparency and openness of opportunities for businesses and people in Canada. When we made this recommendation, we highlighted in the paragraphs that precede this some of the weaknesses we found that led to, in our view, unfairness or inconsistency.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Does the OAG see this as a one-off, or did it make this recommendation to address the department's standard operating procedures?

[Andrew Hayes]

Our audit was focused on four of the COVID-19 programs in particular. Of course, we did have nutrition north in there. That was an existing program. We didn't look, in the case of Fisheries and Oceans or Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, at other programs. We made this recommendation with the expectation that it could be valuable for the departments to implement across their programs.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Recommendation 12.80 states:

Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada should ensure that its future initiatives have performance measurements that allow it to obtain sufficient, consistent, and relevant data to assess the achievement of outcomes.

As the OAG has previously stated publicly, there are long-standing issues regrading proper data collection and use across the Government of Canada. How does this program at this department compare?

[Andrew Hayes]

There were some weaknesses that we identified in the performance measures. I will say that there were, indeed, performance measures, but we felt that the rigour could be improved.

Some programs we evaluated didn't have performance measures at all or indicators that would allow decision-makers to identify how progress was being made or what progress was being made. We felt and we reported that there was opportunity to strengthen the performance measures.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Could you expand on what some of the root causes of the department's deficiency in this area are?

[Andrew Hayes]

I would use the example of asking recipients for self-evaluation as to whether the programs made a difference for them without asking them for supporting documents, or, as another example, having them provide information without providing evidence to back it up.

With the example of the self-evaluations, no information was provided to the recipients to give them a sense of how to answer on the scale. There was a possibility or a risk that information coming back wouldn't be cohesive and coherent.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Hayes. I believe that's my time.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. You're spot on. I appreciate it.

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you have six minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Congratulations on your election.

I thank all the witnesses very much for their highly relevant testimony.

We're meeting here today to look at the Auditor General's report on the Canadian agri-food system. This sector is obviously very complex. We are talking about production, which is often done abroad. In Canada, as we know, there's not much growing right now.

So we have a huge need for food security, to ensure that we have basic food, but also healthy food. Indeed, we are lucky to live in a country where it is possible to provide citizens with a healthy and balanced diet.

In this agri-food chain, several sectors are distributed differently in Canada. Several Canadian provinces do not have access to the sea. Thus, access to the fishery and the oceans is obviously not possible. On the other hand, other sectors were mentioned, such as beef production.

My question is for Mr. Hayes.

To what extent was your written with efficiency in mind? Ensuring food security, investing capital in times of crisis and having a plan is good. We have already discussed the plan.

Have you assessed the issue from the perspective of efficiency? You have to give people resources that they will use better.

[Andrew Hayes]

Thank you for the question.

To examine the question, we divided it into two parts.

First, we looked at whether there was a gender plus analysis. This analysis shows how the programs affect various groups.

We concluded that there were gaps in the information used by departments to establish programs for these groups.

From an efficiency standpoint, we also examined whether the information required for performance evaluation was of good quality. This is why we examined all the programs and measures, but we did not find the measures to be adequate. We therefore made recommendations to improve them.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Very well.

You therefore looked at it from the point of view of efficiency, then the point of view of equity. I'd like to quote paragraph 12.60 of the report:

[...] recipients in Canada’s western region (British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, the Northwest Territories, and Yukon) received advance payments, starting in July 2020. However, in the three other regions of Quebec, central Canada (Ontario, Manitoba, and Nunavut), and Atlantic Canada (Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, and Newfoundland and Labrador), recipients were required to submit claims for reimbursement.

This created gaps that were significant, specifically because in some regions, such as Quebec, which I have the pleasure of representing, funds had to be advanced, while others received advance payments. That means there is an imbalance of resources.

Have you made any other recommendations on this issue, Mr. Hayes?