Evidence of meeting #70 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rosenberg.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much.
We're turning now to Ms. Bradford.
You have the floor for five minutes.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all of the witnesses for giving up your time today to appear before our committee.
Since a lot of the focus has been on Mr. Rosenberg, I want to make it worthwhile for some of the other witnesses who are appearing before us today.
Ms. Biguzs, you're retired from the federal public service. There hasn't been a lot of reference to that today, but their involvement.... When did you retire?
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
What was your role in the federal public service?
12:30 p.m.
As an Individual
My last position was as the deputy minister of immigration. I believe that is why I was invited to appear as a witness to this committee meeting today.
I had a 35-plus-year career in the federal public service, working in a number of different departments but also two central agencies, including the Privy Council Office and the Treasury Board Secretariat.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Did you have any involvement with the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation in your work?
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Okay, so you were probably somewhat confused as to why you were asked to attend.
12:30 p.m.
As an Individual
My understanding, when I received the invitation from the clerk, is that it was in relation to a meeting that took place in April 2016, two months before my retirement, and that my department or I had been included in that invitation for the April 2016 meeting. It was a meeting that took place seven years ago, and I do not recall, to the best of my knowledge, whether I even attended the meeting. It may have been something I delegated. Because I don't have access to documents or agendas.... I verified with former colleagues in my office—my chief of staff and associate deputy—regarding whether they could recall my attending the meeting or whether it was delegated.
To the best of my knowledge, I have no real knowledge of the meeting itself.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Thank you for that.
Turning to Mr. Flack, what role does the PCO play in facilitating conversations between departments and organizations seeking research and other post-secondary funding?
12:30 p.m.
Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, As an Individual
Normally, it wouldn't be the Privy Council Office playing a role in trying to seek funding for the organizations or facilitating that. I'd say the PCO role, particularly in the plans role—the deputy secretary, plans—would be on major issues confronting the country. It would be common practice to bring together external players—it could be from the business community or the academic community—to have a discussion with senior officials around those issues.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
You didn't have any involvement in facilitating the meeting that happened in 2016.
12:30 p.m.
Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, As an Individual
It would have been the Privy Council Office that set up the meeting.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Mr. Knubley, how do departments work with organizations like the Trudeau Foundation to provide post-secondary funding for research and other use?
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
How do departments work with organizations like the Trudeau Foundation to provide post-secondary funding for research and other use?
12:30 p.m.
As an Individual
I'm not sure I know the answer to that question.
What I can speak to is this: There is a relationship between the industry department, or ISED, and the Trudeau Foundation. They are part of the portfolio of agencies—there are many—in the department. Other departments, such as Heritage, for example, have large portfolios like ISED's. In the case of the Trudeau Foundation, they are obviously part of it because they are promoting scholarship and excellence in academic activity, which is a focus of, as I mentioned in my remarks, the science sector in the department.
There is a conditional agreement between the department and the foundation that specifies some of the issues to be discussed. The main one, which has been mentioned, is this issue of ensuring that the Trudeau Foundation spends only interest on its activities.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Thank you for that.
Mr. Rosenberg, I don't want to ignore you completely.
During your time working with the foundation, did you witness any attempts to seek political patronage or influence through any donations to the foundation?
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
That is your time, Ms. Bradford.
We're going to try to get through one more round.
Mr. Kram, I believe you have the floor for five minutes, please.
June 12th, 2023 / 12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Kram Conservative Regina—Wascana, SK
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Rosenberg, you were named president and CEO of the foundation in 2014, and then in October 2015 you found yourself with the foundation having the same last name as the new Prime Minister. Can you share with the committee any steps or safeguards that you put in place to limit any donations that could be or at least could be perceived to be a conflict of interest?
12:35 p.m.
As an Individual
Well, first of all, Mr. Trudeau had not had any dealings with the foundation since before I became the president, and there was a letter from him that I believe came in December 2014, saying that he essentially recused himself. It kind of created almost like a blind trust. He wouldn't be involved for the rest of his time in politics.
There were no specific policies put in place, if that's what you want to know, but as his brother said when he testified at the access to information committee, we were very mindful of not doing anything with him. Even his own brother was very mindful of that.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Kram Conservative Regina—Wascana, SK
Okay, but there are two directors of the foundation who are appointed by the Trudeau family. Is that correct?
12:35 p.m.
As an Individual
That's the structure that was put in place when the foundation was set up and when the funding agreement was put in place.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Kram Conservative Regina—Wascana, SK
You said earlier that you did not think that a donation of $200,000 or a donation of $160,000 could be used to buy influence. Are there any limits to donations to the Trudeau Foundation?